DoggieNews: Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar

Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar

Friday, January 11, 2008

I guess what the television world needs now is an "Iron Dog Trainer" show, similar to the Food Network's, "Iron Chef".

Dogtime ran an article that compares Cesar Millan with Ian Dunbar, and paints Millan as the bad guy, with Dunbar as the good guy, as if Dunbar is the sigh of relief in a world of shock dog trainers.

Most of us don't know Millan, or Dunbar for that matter. All we know about Millan is what we see on television.

What gets missed in all the Millan debates is that dog training is an art, not a science. There is no "best" way to train dogs. Each trainer has their own beliefs and methods on what works best. Just like in healthcare, whether you're talking about allopathic or holistic, each practitioner has their beliefs, and you as the consumer take responsibility on whom you hire.

So why does Millan continue to take his knocks? Because he has a successful television show, period. It's not about his beliefs or methods. In fact, there are other trainers who share similar beliefs and methods as him, yet they never become the subject of debate. If not for Millan's television show, we wouldn't be talking about him.

That means only one thing. Some people out there can't stand it when someone else with differing viewpoints, get so much media attention. Had Ian Dunbar gotten the nod as "Dog Whisperer" instead of Millan, then he too would be criticized by those with differing viewpoints.

Labels: Cesar-Millan, Dog-Training, Ian-Dunbar

107 Comments:

A couple of points:

- Increasingly, dog training is a science, or at least uses a lot of science. Trainers like Dunbar base their methods on psychological and physiological science - studies of conditioning methods, learning methods, Pavlov, Skinner, etc, etc. There are better ways to train dogs, because they're based on the way dogs learn, and there are worse ways to train dogs, because they don't take into account how dogs learn. Training a dog without understanding the science of what's happening is like fixing a car without understanding how internal combustion works. You might get it right by trial and error, but that doesn't mean it's a good way to go about it.

- A major complaint about Millan isn't his method, but his presentation of his method. Like everything else on TV, the show leads people to believe that all problems can be fixed in 20 minutes, including commercials. Millan's show compresses the amount of time and effort that goes into training problem dogs, and makes people believe that it's easy. I know of at least one person who opened a dog training business based solely upon having watched Millan's show. Yes, the person watched Dog Whisperer and decided he was now qualified to train problem dogs. Millan's show creates a myth that it's easy and quick to fix problem dogs. It isn't, it causes dog owners to have unrealistic expectations of what trainers can do, and it makes the dog owners frustrated with their dogs when they have to expend more time and effort then they saw on TV.

By Alfonso Bedoya, at 3:22 PM, January 11, 2008
I think it is important to note that Cesar mostly takes cases that are not ordinary "training" cases. He himself has said he does not train but rehabilitates dogs for people who are running out of options. The show also stresses that people should consult with professionals. On the other hand, Ian Dunbar IS a great trainer, many feel he is the greatest. His gentler methods are definitely preferable to try first. But, I still believe that both men offer something different to the field and as every trainer has learned the more tricks you have in your bag the better prepared you are to deal with the vast differences of our canine companions.

By Anonymous, at 3:31 PM, January 11, 2008
I appreciate your position but frankly there is a considerable difference between the discourse Milan and Dunbar use that ultimately reveals the kind of trainers they are. Milan's quasi-scientific references to "psychology of dogs" shows he is a layman whereas Dunbar is a qualified vet and researcher who has published scholarly peer-reviewed work. Academia in this way acts as a quality control.

I do think Milan, from what you see on TV, is an amazing reader of dogs and I don't deny that isn't charming, often effective and makes for great TV. However, as a trainer myself I fear his approach is very easy to misunderstand because it is so confrontational. Dogs tend to freeze around him, often shutting down, before following his "commands".

I think Dunbar's approach, grounded in academic tradition and behavioural science, is far more suitable to the general public as it promotes the idea that you have to actually work with your dog. It's not a quick fix solution.

No doubt Milan and Dunbar et al will continue to divide trainers and the general public alike. As far as I am concerned it's wonderful that there is a dialogue going on about how we should approach training.

Here's also a heads up to Victoria Stilwell and Paul Owen, dog trainers whose approaches are also worth studying.

By Jontus, at 3:48 PM, January 11, 2008
The subtitle of that article is hilarious:

"While Cesar Millan is dazzling TV audiences, Ian Dunbar has been quietly gaining the respect of the people who really count -- other dog experts"

Other dog experts are NOT the people who really count. The public they serve are the people who really count.

Impressing other doggy insiders is a venture in kissing their collective asses, being politically correct, and massaging each other's egos. Group think. Preaching to the Choir.

I know nothing of Ian Dunbar and I'm no Millan acolyte, but I couldn't get past the first sentence of that article without my eyes rolling. There's so much anti-Millan rhetoric from people in the doggy world who just love to pretend to be high and mighty.

Plenty of those people have taboos on any training method that isn't 100% bribery and frenzied excitement. They call it positive. They also call it positive when their methods don't work for all dogs and all situations and the ones they fail "need" to be killed...err... euthanized... as the final "positive" solution.

Kill the dog, ok, just don't do something so dreadfully awful as punishment or a prong collar or an e-collar. GASP! The barbarity of discipline, the beauty of the blue and pink solution of death!

Other dog professionals don't matter, people matter and people want what works. Punitive training methods have their use, and Millan has demonstrated tact and appropriate application. Not to mention effective results.

The anti-Millan theorists have no training method for dogs like the Border Collie that lost several teeth and an eye chasing a tractor tire. Cheeze wiz and a clicker won't work with a dog that goes from 0 to frenzy the second the tractor's motor turns on and who flings himself against the tire trying to bite it.

Millan used an e-collar and the dog's behavior immediately improved after one session. The perfect tool was the e-collar. It can be used at a distance, over significant other distractions, can be dialed in for precise stimulus and doesn't carry a negative response to the human with it since the dog doesn't know you're pushing the button.

The doggy insider community would gasp, but they have no answers, just calls to declare Millan a witch that needs to be burned.

By Christopher, at 4:51 PM, January 11, 2008
OMG, it gets better. They quote Sue Sternberg in the article!

" "Ian carried the torch for lure-and-reward training," says Sue Sternberg, founder and owner of Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption in upstate New York and author of Great Dog Adoptions: A Guide for Shelters and Successful Dog Adoptions. "He converted an entire generation of yank 'em, crank 'em dog trainers into better communicators." "

You'll remember Sue Sternberg from the HBO documentary "Shelter Dogs" where you'd be easily mistaken that she's just some humble little dog saver in rural New York. You see the hovel she lives in and the hovel of a shelter she runs.

What they don't mention is that she's the one who developed the Assess-A-Pet bogus dog evaluation method used in lots of shelters to justify euthanizing dogs for "behavioral issues" ... things like poking a starved dog with a rubber hand while it has its first meal, and if it ever so much as growls, kill it.

There's no logic or science to the method, it's simply a "tool" used by people who think that dogs need to be killed to be saved (people inept at rehoming them) to pretend that they need to kill the animal because the animal is defective, not their shelter or their sales technique.

Despite getting all teary over dogs, she thinks most of them need to be killed and thinks that the No-Kill movement is horrible. Just compare her shelter's numbers to the No-Kill shelter in a similar community also in New York in Thomson County, and you'll see that not only does the No-Kill shelter take in more and find homes for more animals, they also spend a lot less time at the shelter, are continually socialized and walked to avoid the "cage crazy" syndrome that happens to Sternberg's dogs.

All one needs to do is Google Stenberg's name and see all the commentary against her temperament testing methods, her traveling around the country making money selling her books and testing kits and what she does at those seminars (she evokes Hitler and Stalin and believes that 75% of all dogs need to be killed before they are even given a chance at adoption, thinks that many breeds and dogs over 30 lbs should be done away with, etc.).

It's just amazing that people who think they care so much are reticent to do what works. Their training methods fail because they are too "nice" and their shelters fail because they are too heartless and inept.

By Christopher, at 5:09 PM, January 11, 2008
"Cesar Millan versus Ian Dunbar"

There is no "vs" or contest here for any well-educated and knowledgeable owner or trainer who is familiar with even the basic tenets of modern dog training. It's a no-brainer. Further, this is comparing apples with oranges. Cesar himself repeats often that he is not a dog trainer!

>> "as if Dunbar is the sigh of relief in a world of shock dog trainers."

That is a fair description of one of the many things he means to those who have attended his classes, seminars, or read his books.

>> "Most of us don't know Millan, or Dunbar for that matter."

Many of us know Ian Dunbar very well, and for those who don't, there is enough info out there to fill in most of his four-decade career as veterinarian, distinquished researcher, trainer, and the originator of now mainstream concepts such as puppy classes, bite classification, learned bite inhibition... and on and on.

>> "What gets missed in all the Millan debates is that dog training is an art, not a science. There is no "best" way to train dogs."

Simply not true. Although "art" certainly enters into the skills of any trainer, modern dog training is based solidly on science--on canine ethology, an emerging understanding of canine body language and communication, on genetics, on 100+ years of learning theory, as well as other recent discoveries.

Mr. Millan's philosophy and mindset are also based on science--the outdated science of the 1950's which overemphasized and completely misinterpreted the role of social hierarchy in wolves, and then applied these mistaken notions to dogs. He is not alone in basing his ideas on "dominance" and "pack theory," concepts that most mainstream trainers today consider to be virtually irrelevent to training or understand behavior. But unlike the traditional trainer who may affect the lives of a few hundred dogs during his career, Mr. Millan is introducing a dangerous fiction into--what?--hundreds of thousands of homes weekly!

Barry McDonald
APDT # 69416
Forestburgh, NY
BMcD@hughes.net

By withoutascent, at 7:07 PM, January 11, 2008
I myself am once again appalled by television "theatrics" which turns everything into a mess of heated sensless debates.
We who adot dogs make those dogs a part of our family, and in many ways, like our children, as we are their caregivers.
When a child acts up or misbehaves, or acts up, do we "toss" them away, or send them to a crackpot to help our child ? No, so should we do that with our pets, our dogs ?
only in extremem cases, where safety and the lives of others, should extreme measure be taken - and humanely, as dogs only know, what they are taught, and who teaches them ? We do.
Training should be done,naturally, to the dog breed and temperment and such.
Thare are so many people out there, where i often if we are actuallly "better " than animals, but that is my view point, when it comes to dealing with something that looks up to us and trusts us to be good caregivers.

By Mike, at 11:57 PM, January 11, 2008
One doesn't have to be an expert to know that there are many roads to a destination...in other words, they may both accomplish the same result, it is just a matter of how they got there. I don't know the Dunbar dude, but I do watch the Dog Whisperer. I don't see the heavy handedness that some have spoke of by Millan.

Having watched how wolves interact, as in pack behavior and social status, I believe in what Millan teaches.

One other note, all of the above comments discuss the training of dogs, but none of them address training the OWNER, or the relationship between the trainer, owner and the dog.

Hell, even in small towns there are now competing animal shelters ONLY because of their philosophy and methods in dealing with animals.

This is much ado about nothing!

By Wally, at 12:22 PM, January 12, 2008
From the articles I've read, and stories Cesar has told on talk shows that I've seen... they should make a movie about Cesars life. At the very least, a biography. He brought animal behavior mainstream - Not an easy task. His popularity may save the lives of countless dogs, dogs that most likely would have been put-down or given-up, simply because the dog owner didn't understand their role.

By Anonymous, at 2:21 PM, January 14, 2008
I'm familiar with many different dog trainers - ones that are on TV such as Cesar Millan and the Monks of New Skete, and ones that are not, such as Ian Dunbar, Suzanne Clothier, Jan Fennel and Dick Koehler.

In modern dog training, there seem to be two schools of thought. There is the crowd where everything must be positive all the time and corrections are never used, ever. And there is the crowd where corrections are used to get a dog to submit and perform.

It is my opinion that neither school of thought makes for a good training approach.

First, dog training cannot have a "one size fits all" approach because dogs are individuals. Every dog's circumstances and background are different. Dogs have different temperaments and react differently to corrections and rewards.

Second, you can't have all positive or all negative and expect to have both great results and a great relationship with your dog. If you're always positive with your dog, he gets away with anything. If you're always negative and correcting, he won't trust and love you.

Cesar Millan has done a good thing for dogs, and that is, getting dog training and dog behavior into the mainstream.

There are too many people who assume that their dog has issues and there simply is nothing they can do about it, short of dumping the dog and getting another in its place. There are too many people who treat their dogs like children, dressing them up and pushing them around in strollers, rather than dogs. Why?

Cesar Millan has started to get through to people like that, that there are ways to treat dogs and work with dogs that are more appropriate - and that it's a good thing to hire a professional to accomplish that goal.

Unfortunately, Cesar's show is cut together to meet its time format, giving people a wrong idea of what goes into correcting and changing behaviors. And his methods, which work great in Cesar's hands, may be used completely wrong in the hands of someone else.

For example, Cesar sometimes uses his heel or foot to correct a dog by touching the dog. Someone else may take that as, "It's okay to kick the dog to correct him." It is largely about perception and the jump from one to the other is made quite quickly by many people.

The other problem is that we don't hear a lot about how much it takes in terms of daily upkeep and practicing daily routines in order to keep the problem fixed after Cesar fixes it. Dog training is much more about practicing the behaviors on a day to day basis than it is about the actual training.

In an ideal world, Cesar will get people interested in dog training. Hopefully, that will get them to reading more and learning more, then using only what works for their dog, and discarding what does not. It's when people swear by one method and one method only that we run into trouble.

By Abby K9, at 1:12 AM, January 15, 2008
I too am a dog trainer and agree that yes Ceasar can read and handle dogs, big and scarey dogs. But his method of training is from the history books. Any normal person attempting these methods of training may find themselves on the wrong end of a leash.

Yes I am a positive trainer; a past yank'm trainer changed years ago. What I see from yank'm training is anger, there is not thinking involved. It is do it or choke, pretty much. With positive training there is alot of sitting down and figuring out how to go about an unwanted behavior. No two dogs are alike so there is never one answer.

But brute force is not the way to handle or teach dogs. Millan floods the poor dogs with severe fear behaviors and we as tv watches don't get to see the fall-out behaviors that follow.

I am a huge Dunbar fan, he has brought dog training a long way baby!!

By Sherri, at 1:15 PM, January 18, 2008
Sherri,

Congrats, that's the whole point of this topic. Cesar has brought dog behavior mainstream. There is no "best way", but his show gets everyones attention, and that's good for everyone involved in the dog business. The average American will never be able to do what Cesar can seemingly do in one hour, but I do believe he always mentions to not attempt his technics, and to consult your local trainer - which is free business for us!

By Anonymous, at 8:54 AM, January 19, 2008
Cesar Millan is fantastic!! His methods are so simple and effective it may be easy for some to overlook the communication that is taking place between man and dog. Three 90 lb. black dogs greeting visitors could be a calamity instead they receive a relaxed calm welcome. My UPS delivery person wanted to know how I trained them because she wanted her dog to be just like them. Many other visitors have asked the same questions and I always tell them to watch the Dog Whisperer. Cesar's methods are fast and lasting. I can't imagine why some are calling his methods brutal or barbaric. My dogs have benefited from his methods because they do not lead to a protracted battle changing a behavior. In the end the dog obeys because it sees the human as dominant regardless of how you get to that point. Cesar's methods are so much faster and reduce a lot of the frustration in tradional training. I feel the dog understands what it is being told.

Cesar Millan has made a difference for me. I have studied many others but for me and my dogs Cesar's methods work!

By SKE, at 9:24 AM, January 28, 2008
I don't think I'll leave a post as long as some of your readers, but in doing study on K9 behavior I truely appreciate what Millan is teaching dog owners. Too often I see owners who don't understand this animal that they are taking into their home. Ultimately it is an animal, not some fluffy big eyed mini human that shares their space. Dog's, coming from the same family as wolves, need that pack mentality to feel secure. My own dogs are raised knowing just were they rank in the home and as a result they know what is expected of them, and what they can and cannot get away with. If you don't believe that Dogs need a pack just look at the number of domesticated dogs who roam free and soon find packs of their own. Their behavior mirrors that of a small wolf pack. Millan knows that Dogs need this pack companionship and teaches this to others. No matter what questioning he comes up against, he makes sure that people understand its not a furry child they took in, but a DOG. And yes, I agree the only reason he is getting put under the hot lamp is because he has a t.v show. If not for that then you're right, we wouldn't care. Its the price to pay when you have stardom.

By Maggie, at 7:09 AM, February 01, 2008
As of the end of the summer we acquired additional dogs; one unwanted by temporary owner and one rescued from a dog shelter. Already having two older dogs, we now found ourselves with four. Four dogs is not easy and the two newcomers had serious emotional and behavioral problems. Thank God for Millan! We just could not afford dog behavior training. We watch Millan over and over. We are training our "pack" even the older dogs. It has been a wonderful tool for us and it is working slowly!!The slowly is not due to the dogs ability, but rather to our not being constantly consistant. If someone opened a dog training business based solely on Millans show as Alfonso said, good grief - what an idiot! Don't undermine the good works by Millan with others stupidity. No one watching could come away with anything but the message that it takes time and the owner has to relearn their behavior. Again - unless they are stupid!

By Mrs. B, at 5:33 PM, February 05, 2008
to learn about which methods are preferred one should consult professional dog people .To do this requires a little effort. I would be willing to bet that over 90 per cent of the top dog professional in the world would say that Dr. Ian Dunbar is far superior in methodology. Cesar Millan is old school. Learn from the people who know somethling and have worked with dogs for years, not people who are mesmarized by TV. There is no question when you ask the real experts whose methods are correct and that would be Dr. Ian Dunbar period.

By Anonymous, at 5:17 PM, February 08, 2008
As a former Cesar Millan client, all i can say is his method worked for me and when applied correctly, there is no anger involved resulting in a more balanced dog and trainer:) and there's no WAY i'd hurt my dog!)

By Shalott, at 6:48 AM, February 13, 2008
I myself like Cesar Millan and have used several of his approaches to dog training. I only have one thing to say, if you don't like Millan don't watch. No one says you have to do everything the same way someone else does. I take a little bit of what Millan has to say plus other info from books and dvd's and other trainers. Instead of harping on how dogs are treated at kill shelters, try donating to the ASPCA, a dog that is happy in a home may be a little rambunctious but usually that is all. It doesn't matter how someone else trains a dog it only matters on how you do it.

By cuprite, at 7:26 PM, February 16, 2008
Cesar is old school? If that is the case, how is it Cesar's methods work where old school doesn't?

Cesar is dealing in anger?

Anger doesn't equate to calm assertive.

I'm looking into Ian's methodology, and I'm sure I'll find it is quite effective in some situations, where it isn't I'll still consider Cesar's.

In the end, every humane method has it's place in the trainers tool box.

Arguing about it doesn't really accomplish much.

What I would really love to see is the worlds best trainers and behaviorists tackling those problem dogs that most simply give up on. Lets find out who's methods really do work the best instead of simply shooting off at the mouth about who's methods are the best...

By Logos, at 7:00 PM, March 02, 2008
My wife has been training dogs for over 25 years and loves Cesar Milan's methods. She also took in one of his seminars. Cesar may not even be the best but he is the most popular and as such jealous people find him an easy target.

By Richard Laplante, at 9:35 PM, March 31, 2008
I have recently re read Paul Owen's book "The Dog Whisperer" (ironic huh) where he explains in great detail non violent dog training, but when I got to the part where he brings up dog aggression, he states that it is a subject outside the scope of his book.

So alas I still have no clear example of non violent dog training from a trainer who uses such techniques on an aggressive dog.

Until I have that example, I'll have to utilize what I have learned from Cesar's shows and books.

By Logos, at 11:13 AM, April 01, 2008
Ceasar is a messiah. He's sharing more truth and wisdom about life than anyone else out there. He changes people's lives and their dogs are the beneficiaries.

The 'experts' can keep training dogs not to pee in the house and fetch things, but thank heavens someone like Ceasar is taking on the tough problems and saving dogs' lives.

By Anonymous, at 5:51 AM, April 17, 2008
comI have been a dog trainer for 10 years now, and the academy that I attended used the techniques developed by Ian Dunbar. No doubt his techniques work on puppies and adult dogs who were properly socialized, but do an internet search on his name, and you will find only one or two articles on how he deals with anti-social or aggresive behavior. Ceasar's book not only tells you how to handle your dog, but how to handle yourself in the presence of other dogs. If Ian Dunbar had a tv show, there is no other way to display his methods, other than to compress time so that you can get the full experience in 1 hour. As for Victoria Stillwell and Paul Owens, they are simply using "Dunbars" method. I say "Dunbar" in parenthesis because I believe Richard Wolters had the same idea in the 40's and wrote several books, "Water Dog" "Gun Dog" "Family Dog" and "Game Dog" He uses the same basic methods, which in his day, where more than revolutionary.

And as for all of the talk about Ian is a vet and has a degree, and Caesar just grew up on a farm and has a knack for dogs, you should ask yourself if hands on experience means more to you than knowledge gained by reading. Personally, if I had an aggressive dog, i would call Caesar. If i wanted to teach a puppy how to sit, lay, stay, i would do it myself.

By Anthony Stephens, at 8:33 PM, April 20, 2008
Anyone who says that Ceasar is not humane should get a dictionary. Humane means nothing more than a marked emphasis on humanistic values and concerns. Last time I checked, dogs do not now, nor have they ever had values, and their only concerns in life are where they will eat and sleep next. It is a mistake to believe that your dogs have the ability understand our way of life. What Caesar is trying to do, is make it possible for human beings to understand a dogs thought process. Most people try to humanize their animals and the only thing that happens is you get a spoiled and often fat animal that does not listen and has no rules or boundaries. Caesar has also brought up one other excellent point that I have not heard anyone else on any of these forums mention. EXERCISE is the key to a happy relationship. Even discipline and affection dont make for a better one.

By Anonymous, at 9:08 PM, April 20, 2008
The real point of this argument is that there are TWO schools of thought here. Cesar Millan teaches the more primitive, psychology of the dog pack. Yes, this methods may seem "archaic" to some, however, they are most certainly tried and true. He teaches the OWNER about "rules, boundaries, and limitations" that dogs and humans need to practice. He practices calm and assertive energy and in no way encourages anger, frustration, and only uses the tools (prong collars, shock collars, etc) that the owners choose. In his words, he stays "consistent with what the owner wants". I would call Cesar the backbone to dog mentality.
Ian Dunbar is equally as brilliant, however, he is a DOG TRAINER and should not be compared to Cesar as such. Ian teaches the dog to sit, stay, come, etc. and for this the owner should use positive reinforcement. Cesar's methods, in conjunction with Ian's will result in a happy, balanced dog that listens to his owner. Cesar produces a respectful, attentive, follower to the pack-leader owner, while Ian creates a dog that WANTS to listen to commands.
Both methods are excellent and serve there own purpose.

By Lauren, at 9:48 PM, April 20, 2008
Many people will always continue to down "the popular guy" no matter what the issue is from dog training to who can smoke best! But I personally have met Cesar Millan and I can assure that this man is truly a gentle soul. He has a strict hand but his methods work. But like the writer here said every trainer has their own methods. I am a trainer and I have my own methods but that's because it's what works for me. Everyone should be smart enough to know that we all aren't the same and do things a little bit differently than each other. So why beat down someone who has made himself successful? I can honestly say my time spent with Cesar is a time I cherish for a very long time and will always be grateful for his advice to follow my dream and start my own training business. Without his support and belief in what I could do I wouldn't be here today making many families and their dogs happy!

By Fido Fitness El Paso, at 12:47 PM, April 24, 2008
I'd like to point out that one of the major problems with Ceasar Millan is that his methods are not ones that people can learn to use simply from watching his TV show. While they work for Ceasar, they can easily be mis-used by owners who don't understand the SCIENCE behind his methods. There is a very clear and well defined science behind the way that dogs learn and the situations in which Positive Reinforcement are appropriate versus situations in which Positive Punishment are appropriate. When I train my own dogs or help others with theirs, I first try positive reinforcement, IF it isn't working or doesn't fit with the dog's personality, then other methods can be tried. However when handling certain very sensitive breeds like the afore mentioned Border Collie, you must be very careful not to do something that will instill fear in the dog as this is something that is nearly impossible to "train out" and fix. Please, please, please, don't voice your opinion if you don't know what you're talking about. Unless you understand the science of dog training, you'll just end up confusing owners who already are confused by the plethora of unauthorized opinions in the dog training world.

By Laura, at 10:48 AM, April 26, 2008
The problem with Milan and the hype surrounding his reality(?) television show, is that it is not real. Any dog owner who has done even an ounce of training with their dog/s knows that dog behavioural problems will not be solved in 20 minutes.

The problem with people these days is that they want a quick fix and they may get a quicker fix with Milan than using more positive training methods, but they will also hurt the relationship with their dog or they will get bitten in the process by his hands on approach.

The man may be charismatic and convincing which are great attributes for television ratings, but again it is made for television and you cannot believe everything you see on the box.

By Faith, at 1:05 PM, May 01, 2008
I've read books written by Ceser and Dunbar. I have twenty years experience of raising and training dogs ranging from a sensitive Norfolk Terrier who cringed if you told him "No" loudly, to a strong-willed 160 pound Saint Bernard. Hands down, Cesar wins. If you read his first book, he talks about communicating with dogs based on the energy you project to them, as well as viewing dogs as animals, not "fur babies" as many people call their pets. He is intuitive and, he gets "it". Truthfully, anyone can train a dog with a soft temperament. Training a hard temperament dog is something that can only be done when you have the mindset that Cesar shares with you in his books.
The Dunbar crowd can be epitomized as white, middle class and owners of easy-train dogs such as Goldies and lap dogs. When you start dealing with dominant breeds, clickers and "think happy thoughts only" 'aint gonna cut it.

By Yaz, at 4:47 PM, May 06, 2008
People never cease to amaze me...

I don't know a whole lot about Dunbar, but I do know that most BEHAVIORAL issues will not be solved with positive reinforcement alone.
This is what is being misunderstood. Cesar is not a dog trainer, Cesar is a dog psychologist. Dunbar is an obedience trainer. Obedience training can be accomplished by positive reinforcement. Correcting an issue that's been there for years may take more than a tasty treat and baby-talk to resolve.
I don't see Cesar using heavy handed techniques. He is calm and he is firm. That is all. He is not kicking a dogs. He is not hurting a dog if he lays or hovers over them in a show of dominance.
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...he is not claiming that the behavior is corrected after spending the 20 minutes with the dog that you see on the show. He is showing you HOW to correct the issue. This will obviously require repetition, and many times he tells the owner as much.
And it's a sad thing to say, but MOST times, it is us, the humans that are failing the animal. If you watch Cesar's show, it's painfully obvious that the problem is with the human.
I can't say what method is better. I believe there is no "standard". Each issue is unique and will require a different approach.
What I can say that I have seen Cesar do nothing wrong or harmful toward an animal. People seem to be a little jealous that he's getting the spotlight right now, and they're doing what they can to bring him down.
It's a shame...

By Mark, at 7:07 AM, May 09, 2008
To refer all the way back to the very first comment, that "increasingly, dog training is a science...", it should be noted that there is a serious contradiction implicit in the anti-Milan/pro-Dunbar argument. Milan is criticized for using a "cookie-cutter approach" (New York Times article 'Pack of Lies') to dogs, applying a single standard to each and every case. This is seen as unfair to the apparent individuality and uniqueness of dogs' characters. So, we want to promote a sort of tolerance for differences between dogs and yet, at the same time, dog training is supposed to adhere to a "scientific" approach to training because we also value the precision and consistency of science. Which is it, then? Can clearly defined, immutable laws --a one, true approach-- be applied to training dogs as Dunbar's crowd seems to say, or are dogs too radically individual?

The question is a false dilemma which purposely ignores Milan's true insight. For Milan, there are certain characteristics and capacities which all dogs share in common (of course, without this we would be unable to identify a 'dog' from a cat, chicken, or moose) but that each dog is a particular, unique instantiation of dog-ness. His training methods play off of the shared characteristics and capacities of dogs, allowing them to "be who they are" and "find the animal inside" them. From adolescent bears and elephants to human youth, it is evident that healthy character development, self-esteem, and self-identity depend on proper discipline. When adult elephants are removed from an adolescent elephant's life, it exhibits aggression and rage. Bears who do not benefit from the guidance from authority figures like parents and older siblings are not equipped for survival on their own. Without proper discipline and education, humans never receive the means with which to seek out their own particular happiness.

Milan's approach is a compromise between the need for authority and the need for tolerance. You can see on his show that the dogs under his care flourish and grow from having a sense of direction, an outlet for their energies, and pride in themselves.

By M.P. Moran, at 2:22 PM, May 16, 2008
My biggest gripe on Cesar is that dogs are not wolves. They have been separated from wolves for thousands of years, and do not live in "packs". They do not hunt in packs, but instead are scavengers that have been domesticated, and they do not need a dominant leader.Instead they need support, love, and understanding from their human companions especially when they have behavior issues. I agree with him in that dogs need exercise instead of constant affection, and boundaries are great, but the whole pack leader strategy is not completely accurate. He is a great person and as of now can help aggressive dogs but I don't agree with all of his methods.

By Anonymous, at 7:06 AM, May 17, 2008
To the last "anonymous"... Dogs do indeed run in packs when left without human interference, as anyone who lives out in the country can tell you. Big deer killing, cat devouring, poodle munching packs... And they fight and dominate each other just like wolves. Or perhaps like dingos which are simply domestic dogs that have been left to their own devices for a few hundred generations.

By AlphaBitch101, at 4:45 PM, May 19, 2008
I had a dog that was an incredible puller. A friend recommended to me to watch Cesar and I now have a totally different dog. (It takes work, but the method is successful.)

I think people miss the point with Cesar. He is not aggressive. His foot taps are not kicks. The collar pull is not choking. (Often, when disciplining, he just makes the 'ch' sound!)

After getting bitten(!), he can still say (while disciplining the dog on the spot), calmly, "I am not mad. I am not taking it out on the dog. I don't want to punish or hurt him/her. I want to discipline. I want to make the boundary clear." Well, that's it. If we could all raise our kids with the same level of calm, clear-headedness when they really misbehave!

I now practice being that calm (and assertive) with my dog, and on top of it, it makes me a better partner when I am in a fight with my husband. How different is that dog bite (out of defense) than a snarly comment from someone you are arguing with? Don't we all need to stay calm, and yet assert our boundaries in the face of aggression, fear, upset, etc.? Can you do it, personally? Really, now, think on it. If not, maybe you have something you could learn from him.

As a scientist, I would say the dog world is not as simple as one alpha and a pack of subservient followers, but the idea that a dog needs boundaries is right on. (We all do.) And exercise first? Absolutely! Two walks a day? Ideal! Calm assertiveness always? Completely agree.

What of the flooding and alpha rolls? Well, he works with extreme cases. But, if he can rehabilitate dogs that would otherwise be euthanized, then more power to him. I don't need to adopt those behaviors, and neither do you, if it doesn't float your boat.

There is nothing wrong with asserting oneself clearly (if there is no negative energy). In truth, I would like to see Cesar more affectionate with the dogs, but it is a time-limited show. From everything I have read about him, he is completely devoted to his dogs and is very loving. In recent shows, it seems he is reminding owners when the right time to give affection is. I would suspect, he figures we, as the American public, have the affection piece down pat!

May he remain calm assertive in the face of drama evermore and continue to remind us to do so as well.

By planthugger, at 8:14 PM, May 20, 2008
I have to laugh at the state of dog training these days. Hell, many doctors will tell you that the practice of medicine is an art (the "healing arts" is still a term commonly used) with many treatment methods varying from doctor to doctor, now why is dog training so complicated and scientific? Yes there are basic priniples such as association that have been proven through scientific study to be at work, but man has been breeding and training dogs to do his bidding for many more years than Cesar Milan or Ian Dunbar will be around. You don't have to have a degree to be credible and those with degrees aren't necessarily more credible than those without. In the end the only thing that really matters is results based upon love of the animal and humane training methods. I think the most important thing that most overlook and Milan preaches (as did Wolters, author of the dog training bible Water Dog) is that most dog problems are trainer/owner problems. Train the trainer.

By Anonymous, at 6:50 AM, June 08, 2008
The principles behind dog training and shaping behavior are well understood by science. The biology, and behavior of dogs has also been well studied. Any reasonable assessment of Millan's claims when compared with the scientific literature reveals a major gap in his knowledge about dogs.

Millan likes to excuse his actions by claiming he "rehabilitates" and does not train. But this does not fly; training is the modification of behavior - so despite what Millan likes to tell the public he trains and does so through force and intimidation.

By Anonymous, at 9:46 PM, July 02, 2008
I'm now the "owner" of a one year old Golden, that a family member brought to my home to keep as I have a large fenced area. This dog has had no training at all. He went fro the breeder to a indooor kennel, then once to large for that a small fenced kennel outside, then to a 25' dog run. the only socialization he had was when he would get fed and maybe pet or rough-housed with.

I have never had a problem with training a dog before this one, even training a Malamute which is known to be stubborn.

I have consulted with trainers in my area and get so many different programs I'm even more confused about how to address his issues than before.

There is one trainer that was telling me one thing that sounded promising as an approach, then I found out later and verified with the Humane Society that he abused dogs in his training program and they would never recommend him. Another who was familiar with that individualtold me her method and advised I get "The Gentle Leader," which she used in her training since I have injuries to both shoulders and left leg. I watched the enclosed DVD on the proper use before she came out for a session. Then when she came for the session she did the complete opposite. she said the fit didn't have to be percise and proceeded to aggressively yank and pull on the leash and collar, taking the leash in both hands and wrenching the dog's head forward and back almost to the point of the top of the head touching his back. When I confronted her about the difference she said you had to be that forceful with Goldens. Now after that first session I can't even get near my dog with the collar. If he sees it he runs. Now he has that problem along with the others, mouthing, jumping up, failure to come when called, etc. My problem is who do you ever trust. those two were the local ones the others are in the next state and too far for me to be able to drive due to my injuries. I'm just trying to save myself and the dog and keep my sanity.

By Beth, at 6:52 PM, July 08, 2008
I only see healthy, happy and peaceful dogs at Cesar's center. There will always be haters when someone becomes successful. And even though he is successful he is humble enough to admit he is always learning. There in nothing, absolutely nothing that works for everyone the same way. If Cesar's way works for some then great, if not look somewhere else.It may also be that heaters (those with a degree) may resent Cesar's climb to the top without ever obtaining a degree.
Heaters, take a chill pill and get over you envy.

By Anonymous, at 6:48 PM, July 12, 2008
As a trainer, here is what I know.

I know statistically dogs are more likely to bite out of fear, rather than aggression. Therefore, fear based training can be dangerous. I also know that standing over a dog and growling is NOT a common dog behaviour, it is a Dog-Challenge-Dog behaviour, and you run the risk of a dog taking that challenge. Where Millan gets this mixed up is that it's a wolf behaviour.

I know that positive reinforcement (my number one choice) builds self-confidence and a willingness to work (just like people! Would you go to work if you weren't getting paid?) where as destructive behaviours tear down self-confidence.

I know that Cesar Millan is facing lawsuits from upset owners of dogs who have been injured while in his care - and I know Dunbar is currently facing none of those.

I know Dunbar is currently internationall recoginzed under many associations in terms of obedience certification. I also know he is a trained veterinariny who has seen first-hand the damage done by certain "training tools" like pinch collars and choke chains can do. I know Dunbar has a University diploma in animal behaviour.

I know Cesar Millan is good looking and charming, but I also know many of the same international orginazations considered the standard in training have refused a certificate to Millan for "Inhumane training methods." I know that exercise is good for a dog, but tying a dog to a treadmill with a choke chain on is dangerous, and similar to how they torture prisoners in jail. Cesar is not a Dog Psychologist, He has not been to university, he has not completed any training whatsoever. This "Trainer vs Behaviourlist" is crap. The man has no training, and you're screaming Dunbar isn't qualified with aggressive dogs, and that he's just a trainer?!

I know dogs are not wolves, are not generally hunters, they are scavengers. relating to dogs as though they are wolves isn't helpful. If you actually studied dogs you'd discover that dogs differ from wolves in that they support each other in packs, and are highly bonded, and not loaners like Wolves tend to be. Also, the leader is usually the one that controls the resources, not the most aggressive.

And I guess I know I am not stupid enough to believe everything I see on TV.

And as for your Golden, Beth, I'd recommend a Easy Walk, by premier. Fairly new product, similar to a harness. Many dogs don't like gentle leaders becasue when they pull it pulls their head down, and they are no longer able to communicate to other dogs (and therefore they think to Humans and any anything else!) and this can scare them into pulling more just to get out of it. the problem is too it is a device that can be used in an abrupt manner by humans (we can be such bad walking partners!). A harness is designed to allow the dog to pull without choking themselves, and pinch collars can cut their neck, and a choke chain might collapse the trechia. The Easy Walk runs along the front of the chest, with an attachment at the center. What happens when the dog pulls is it turns him sideways, no pain, no confusion, no inability to communicate. It's just annoying like crap! The design is good so that you'd really have to pull hard before it'd actually hurt your dog. But you wont have to pull at all. This is a temporary solution. Make yourself really exciting when you walk. Carry toys or treats. If you're not interesting , your dogs attention will wander, and then pulling starts. Keep a fast pace, and keep sessions short. Make sudden turns, and when your dog follows you, make a big deal out of it, like he just ran a marathon. Watching where you are and where you are going becomes an extremely rewarding behaviour :D. Also, if you know something is coming up that your dog wont succeed on at first, DON'T FIGHT IT! Use a release command (Free dog, go, whatever) before you let go. Your dog will learn to listen for that command before running off. Never used a choke chain or pinch on my goldens, and they walk like pros now.

By Karyn, at 1:15 PM, July 14, 2008
And One last thing - if course the dogs you see in Cesar's center are happy and healthy - they have the power to edit anything they don't want you to see. Isn't Reality TV great?!

By Karyn, at 1:19 PM, July 14, 2008
To Karyn:
You might want to be careful of what you "know". For starters, you said:
"I know that Cesar Millan is facing lawsuits from upset owners of dogs who have been injured while in his care - and I know Dunbar is currently facing none of those."

Umm. No. Milan faced ONE suit. That suit was brought by an owner whose trainer was friends with Milan and Milan graciously allowed the trainer / caretaker to "borrow" his facilities. Milan wasn't even there at the time, and it was not one of his employees who injured the dog. Suit was dropped / settled out of court.

So, yeah, you might want to double-check some of those other "facts" that you're so sure of, too.

By Anonymous, at 1:07 PM, July 23, 2008
I've done competitive obedience training for 10 years and rescue work with boxers for 7 years.

We take in, work with, and successfully place dogs that the local shelter deems "unadoptable" because the dog (typically a 9-24 month intact male boxer with little to no socialization or training and often under-fed) fails the SAFER test. As noted in a previous post, many of the underfed dogs fail the plastic hand test. The other common test that's failed is the pinch test. Often, the dog passes the first pinch test but then gives a reaction to the second test. The dogs have also failed the SAFER because they jump up repeatedly or are dominant when meeting another dog. All of these traits are pretty typical for an untrained young boxer and are also pretty easy to deal with with some discipline.

In my world, I'd rather work with the dog, which, depending on the dog, may include corrections, may include having the dog lay down, may include a pinch collar, than kill the dog.

Cesar Millan was a breath of fresh air in the pervasive climate of no corrections and an "all positive" behaviour modification approach.

He puts into words and actions what many people who work with dominant breeds already knew:

Dogs need:

1. Exercise
2. Discipline
3. Affection

The people who adopt these dogs often are familiar with Cesar's "rules" because of his show and seem to understand the importance of giving dogs a physical outlet for their energy and a set of boundaries. You need the dog's respect more than you need his love, especially when you're dealing with an adolescent.

I think Cesar's message goes well beyond what he does to solve problem behaviour. His message is a common sense wake up call to everyone who owns a DOG to respect the fact that the dog is a dog and treat him accordingly.

By Anonymous, at 5:51 PM, July 23, 2008
I have 2 yellow labs. Very, very good dogs. When they were little I took them to an obedience trainer who was a reformed correction trainer (her words). My dogs did pretty well. When I said "off" they got off of whatever they were on. When I say "down" they went down. However, one of dogs was a counter surfer and extreme opportunist. The trainer recommended that I create traps for her so that I wouldn't be associated with the negative thing that would happen ie: a bunch of empty cans on the counter so that when she jumped up they would fall and scare her. I tried that, she ran from the cans and came back to the counter in about 5 minutes. She also told me it would take at least 100 times before the dog would get it. AND that if the dog was rewarded for getting on the counter: meaning if she was successful at even getting a crumb, that that would negate all the previous work. I can tell you it was hard work and it DIDN'T work. Maybe it would have if I didn't have children or work or other obligations that I had to meet like taking a shower for example. I then took her to a trainer that was like Hitler! After 2 hours with her, my dog was freaked out. I tried to implement what she said to do, but it just seemed so mean.

Then I was introduced to the Dog Whisperer Show. I truly feel that Cesar has it right! It is the middle ground that I was looking for. He uses what ever works for that particular dog - matching intensity. He doesn't give up and allow a dog to win the battle. I have to admit sometimes it looks harsh, but when the dog finally submits and Cesar teaches the owner to replicate what he has done - Holy Cow, that is impressive. My dog had learned some very bad habits while I was using positive reinforcement only as a training tool. But for behavior modification I stand by the fact that SOME dogs (not all) need correction. They may just not know what is being asked of them, they may just be stubborn, I don't know. I know that correction has worked in my house.
The other thing I want to mention is that I believe that correction with ANGER is a bomb waiting to happen. Correction with calm energy is the key!

By Anonymous, at 5:19 AM, July 24, 2008
I can only say that I have used Cesar's teachings with my rescued dogs, and it works. They are balanced, well mannered, and calm.

We recently rescued a high strung Goldendoodle mix that was not socialized, and my mother, who lives with us, told me I was nuts because I was not disciplining him enough. I stayed with Cesar's methods, and a few months later, this little guy is deliteful, and fully housebroken.

By Robert Bruce, at 7:25 AM, July 25, 2008
As a scientist and someone who works in research labs, I'm utterly disgusted at the complete lack of understanding of what science is and how people use it in this forum. Psychology is a soft "science" it observes patterns and trends over large populations. it does not apply specifically to any one person or animal. Like economics it is a study of trends. Science as you people speak of it is a very precise exacting rigor in which something done will produce exactly the same results. e.g. if I take a wire hook it up across a battery it will produce a current based exactly on the properties of the material the wire is made of and how the battery is constructed. I will be able to predict this reaction with a very high level of precision. That is science. Science is the STUDY of something something. Anytime you can put one response into something and get a unique response from every single subject it is not science. Therapists are not scientists. Therapy is not science. There is a reason Universities do not include psychology and economics into their "sciences" departments. Many of Psychologies tests are inherently subjective. So please drop your "psychology is science" line. It isn't. Period.

Dogs have been altered socially and physically from their wolf predecessors yet gene analysis has shown they are still very closely related and in fact dogs are only sub species of Canis Lupus. In fact, Dingos were once domesticated dogs who have been feral for many generations. When a dog goes feral it starts to exhibit many wolf-like behavioral traits. So trying to argue that they are inherently different than wolves is wrong. They are the same species, their instincts are coded into their DNA. While Alpha dog is not technically correct, Dominant breeder is. If you want to read about pack dominance there are many many great scientific articles concerning the observable trend of dominance in pack animals.

Many of these supposed "dog behavioralists" are kinda like the scientists that bush and crony's keep bringing up challenging global warming(the actual event not who is causing it). For instance take Coppinger. His undergrad work is in literature and philosophy. His pHd was in Biology on "The Novelty of Avian feeding". He works at a school that does not even offer a degree in biology as a bio professor. Paul Owen advertises no related professional degree. Neither does Victoria Stilwell. So don't invoke them to back your science. Even your proclaimed Ian dunbar does not have a Neuroscience and Behavior Biology pHd. He has an Animal Behavior Psychology degree. Which has many implications but the first and foremost being that he is not a scientist, because many of the tests employed by psychologists have a level of subjectivity and are not subject to the same level of peer review as Neuroscience and Behavior Biology conclusions are. Cesar Millan was raised on a farm with no degree. So obviously he isn't held up to the same standards as scientists are either.

I'm not saying these people have bad methods or what they say is wrong (except in the case of Coppinger his work on dogs is easily disproven by looking at dogs who have gotten loose and become feral, just because an instinct is suppressed doesn't mean it isn't still there) What I'm saying is they each have developed methods that work the way they practice them. The argument about science is utterly ridiculous because none of them are scientists.

If you want to read about the science of dog behavior read "The Domestic Dog" by James Serpell, "Genetics and Behavior of Domestic Animals" Edited by Grandin (this is a textbook be warned), or "A Concise Survey of Animal Behavior" by Honore and Klopfer. These are all very scientific texts regarding domestic animal behavior. and here is a great article by an environmental group in Minnesota about pack behavior for all you "wolves don't have alpha leaders" people. http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_dominance_alpha_status.htm

P.S. If you really want a test of whether or not any of these people are practicing real science, ask them what peer review process they have to go through before they can publish their work. I would bet money that the answer is none.

By Kelson, at 11:25 PM, July 27, 2008
In a clarification, Psychology can be treated as a science. to see how http://www.lib.unc.edu/instruct/psychology/literature/scholarlyvpopular.html

In it's popular form and form in which it is referred to in these forums as therapeutic psychology. It is not a science. This is the psychology I was referring to not the work being conducted in

Ian Dunbar's books fall under the second category. most notably in the category of language. He uses language easily understood by common people instead of discipline specific. He has not published in many(if any I cannot find a single article even through lexis nexis).

But psychology is a science when it is peer reviewed and developed through experiments conducted with proper scientific technique.

When it is published material based off of personal experience and observation. It IS NOT science.

If you want the very in depth dog research, Look up John Paul Scott. He studied and researched dog behavior, but unlike Dunbar he scientifically described these behaviors like critical socialization period. Dunbar uses this research as does everyone else, but the work he puts out offering solutions on a way to train your dog passing it off as psychology is not science.

P.S. If it doesn't have a works cited page it's probably the latter, even cutting edge and revolutionary research uses other peoples work to help build on. This is especially true if you are contradicting previous work, you must site and disprove that other work before you can continue on with the proof of your own work.

By Kelson, at 11:51 PM, July 27, 2008
I found some of Dunbar's scientific work oddly enough it tended to promote the idea of a dominant pack structure
Competitive Behavior in Male, Female, and Pseudohermaphroditic Female Dogs. F. Beach, M.Buehler and I. Dunbar. Journal of Comparative and Physiological Psychology. 1982, 96(6) 855-874

In summary this article read that dogs created social structures based on their size during development not their final adult size. So a smaller dog who was bigger as a pup could end up higher in the social hierarchy. The other work I found was Behavior in Castrated Animals in a vetrinary journal.

That was it in all of ESCOhost, lexisnexis, factiva and the OJOSE. The only thing I haven't done is a library of congress search.

So, my conclusion remains, Ian Dunbar may once have been a scientist, but what he does now is not science.

By Kelson, at 12:18 AM, July 28, 2008
I was really shocked when I saw all this criticism towards Cesar Millan. I'm a huge fan of his show and have actually tried some of his techniques at home... with success. It really gets me mad when people said negative things about him. First off, most of this talk is only because he has a successful TV show. I never even heard of Ian Dunbar until researching Cesar Millan. I don't know what Ian Dunbar's way of "fixing" a dog is so I can't say much about him. I read somewhere that Cesar is hurting the dog when he pins them to the floor, I don't believe that. Cesar even explains why he's doing the action. I was watching an episode today... he grabbed the dog by the neck and he explained why he was doing this. I personally think every other dog trainer is jealous that Cesar has a TV show (hate me for saying that)... but then again, Cesar is not a dog trainer as he says: "I rehabilitate dogs, I train people". I knew there would be negative things about Cesar when I googled his name, I wanted to see what people say about him. I read an earlier comment about how Cesar "kicks" the dog... he does not kick the dog, he uses the foot to re-direct the dogs attention, it's a light tap with the foot not a kick you would use to kick a soccer ball... let's not exaggerate, same with the touch with the hand. Also, if your one of those people that said he hurts the dog when not on camera... I'd like to ask you: Have you seen him live rehabilitating a dog? If you didn't then don't say anything. Like I said before, I have tried his techniques before and I did not get hurt at all. And his technique of pulling on the leash to again, re-direct the dogs attention... how is that hurting the dog? Cesar has rehabilitated many celebrities (Oprah, Kathy Griffin) dogs, I haven't heard anything about how he hurt their dogs and believe me... it would be all over the news if a celebrity complained about his ways of fixing their dog(s). I also thought this.... do you think his show would be nominated for an emmy if he was abusing the dogs? I'm thinking not. Of course, there will be a lot of people that disagree with what I had to say but I'm pretty sure most of the people that said anything negative about Cesar Millan is exaggerating just a tad to try to make Cesar look like the bad guy. And from what I read about Ian Dunbar, he is a dog trainer, Cesar is not, so you can't even put them in the same category.

By Andrew, at 7:05 PM, July 30, 2008
This comment that Martk left explains perfectly Cesar's ways. And I couldn't agree more with what he said.
People never cease to amaze me...

"I don't know a whole lot about Dunbar, but I do know that most BEHAVIORAL issues will not be solved with positive reinforcement alone.
This is what is being misunderstood. Cesar is not a dog trainer, Cesar is a dog psychologist. Dunbar is an obedience trainer. Obedience training can be accomplished by positive reinforcement. Correcting an issue that's been there for years may take more than a tasty treat and baby-talk to resolve.
I don't see Cesar using heavy handed techniques. He is calm and he is firm. That is all. He is not kicking a dogs. He is not hurting a dog if he lays or hovers over them in a show of dominance.
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...he is not claiming that the behavior is corrected after spending the 20 minutes with the dog that you see on the show. He is showing you HOW to correct the issue. This will obviously require repetition, and many times he tells the owner as much. (Everyone who says it's not a quick fix.... duh. Cesar shows them what to do and at the end of the show he tells us how they're doing, just because Cesar can do it in 20 minutes doesn't mean the dogs problem is gone. Cesar even says that, don't lie about him.
And it's a sad thing to say, but MOST times, it is us, the humans that are failing the animal. If you watch Cesar's show, it's painfully obvious that the problem is with the human.
I can't say what method is better. I believe there is no "standard". Each issue is unique and will require a different approach.
What I can say that I have seen Cesar do nothing wrong or harmful toward an animal. People seem to be a little jealous that he's getting the spotlight right now, and they're doing what they can to bring him down.
It's a shame..."

By Andrew, at 7:22 PM, July 30, 2008
I can hardly wait until they come out with a cat training show.
I think it should be called
"The Cat Screamer" as in "FLUFFY, GET THE #&*% OFF THE TABLE!!!" GINGER, QUIT SHREDDING THE $%&# DRAPES!!!" "TOM, STOP SPRAYING THE #$%& SOFA!!!"

Yes, a show about training felines and their bad behaviors is long overdue and none of that spray them with water stuff...tried that with Freddie Cougar, (a nightmare on any street) and at the end of the day I had one soggy cat and many soaked surfaces...the next day the water bottle was on the ground the the straw part of the spayer chewed to pieces... (how'd he know?!?!?!) He also chewed up 2 thermometers because he did not like having his temperature taken!
We still have him and have just learned how to get along. He may not pay the bills but he owns the place.

By Anonymous, at 2:08 PM, August 03, 2008
Cesar millan is the best at what he does, that is why he has his own show. If you don't like it then don't watch. He treats dogs from a psychological aspect. He simply understands the nature of the dog. That is the correct way to go about things, and if you think different then you're stupid.

*example:

Take a person who is addicted to a drug, you dont shock him until it goes away, infatc it would make things worse.

The correct way would be to go to rehab and have somebody heal your mind.

That's the same with dogs.

By Anonymous, at 2:03 PM, August 07, 2008
True story. I have a 12 y.o. golden/border collie mix that was pulling very badly on her leash. So back in May...I decide to find a local dog training school to help us with loose leash walking. I go to the local K9 training center, get a Gentle Leader collar and proceed with 3 weekly lessons of standard tasty-treat bribery. Then, the training center's owner comes through class #4..approaches my dog who obviously didn't like her (she was barking and backing-up)...and the owner jutes her hand in my dogs face and promptly gets a snarl and nip (no blood) from my dog. I was shocked since my dog has never bit anyone before. Needless to say...we were told that we could not return because my dog now had a 'bite history'. I'm not finished.....the owner/trainer then proceeds to convince the local groomer/boarder that I have been a customer of for over 8 years to also not continue services with us. Insurance reasons. (This was my dogs first bite incident).

Now...I realize a bite (or nip) is NEVER right. But I think a dog trainer should be a little more professional and maybe come up with some good advise or at least a referral to someone that can help. Not the childish black-balling that I experienced. What's worse is that this owner/trainer posts a resume on her website that claims she was the "The Original Dog Whisperer". At the time, I didn't even know what that meant and someone told me about Cesar Millan. I went to Millan's website and purchased the first two seasons of "Dog Whisperer". Between the Gentle Leader collar and following Cesar Millan recommendations, my dog's behavior is 1000% better and we are both continuing to work and enjoy our wonderful new way of being with each other and the world. Cesar Millan's work has been a godsend to us -- effective beyond my highest hopes. I'm very pleased that everything worked out the way it did.

By Anonymous, at 6:26 AM, August 10, 2008
It's just amazing to me that people who watch teevee shows (e.g., the AP Animal Cops series) and see the Assess-a-Hand being used in the last of the three resource guarding tests, the bowl of food, and see euthanasia decisions following on a poor reaction by the dog, or hear stories about the test don't get that what one sees or hears about is never the whole story.

Watch Victoria Wells (i momentarily forget her new surname) on Animal Precinct a few times, watch her lips when a dog reacts poorly to that test. Sometimes the ASPCA with its huge income and large Behavior Department takes on the responsibility of retraining such a dog.

Uh duh, could it be that the oldest and largest animal shelter in the USA has more resources to help such animals? Could it be that other shelters, even fine ones overall but with much less facility space, funding, and staff, don't always have that option evem tho they may want to?

Save the most adoptable, that's the rule. Always running in place with limited funds, staff, space, resources, and major potential liability and reputation issues, most of the smaller conscientious shelters have to make unhappy decisions some days - save this one in serious trouble or save these six over here who are easily trained out of minor poor behaviors?

Which decision would critics of this test, if they were actually working in these places, make standing there looking around and feeling rotten about this.

No one in a good place wants to euthanize any animal, but some days there are just no other options.

By Anonymous, at 4:36 PM, August 12, 2008
"*example:

Take a person who is addicted to a drug, you dont shock him until it goes away, infatc it would make things worse.

The correct way would be to go to rehab and have somebody heal your mind.

That's the same with dogs."

Except you forgot dogs aren't humans, which is one of the main points Cesar makes.

And BTW... how many times do you think Rehad actually helps a person?

By Anonymous, at 3:42 PM, August 16, 2008
Not a lot but it's the persons fault...
Dogs live in the now which Cesar mentions.

By Anonymous, at 6:21 AM, August 17, 2008
More I read anti-Cesar coments, more I have an opinion, that those who post them have seen just a couple of Cesars videos & feel themselves competetive enought to critisise Cesar Millan.
People say: dogs are not wolfs, & I'm agree. That's why Cesar's methods are not based wolf pack model, but on a long observation of dogs living in a pack. Sinse he was a kid, he lived in a farm where they had many dogs. Later, already in USA, he has his own pack of dogs. He spends time with his dogs each day observing them & learning from them. There are ex fight dogs in his pack, which now are calm & peacefull. All those "positive trainers" would have already eutanised theese anymals for an uncorectable & agressive behavior, but by Cesar they were reahabilitated & they continue to live as nice pets.
I used Cesar's methods with my own dog, & with many other dogs, & I'm realy happy with results. I have a wonderful calm & submisive dog, which can be also very playfull at the right time, it's not agressive thowards other dogs or people, we both injoy our walks without pulling or barking. Most dog trainers train dogs to sit or ley down, but they do not train owners how to comunicate with theyr dogs. Cesar tells us how to read dog's body language, how to "talk" to our dog so dog understands us. There is no any crualty in Cesar's methods, as they are based on dog's natural behavior, & dog understands easyly what the owner means, it doesn't have to suffer long lasting exitement or fear to be rewarded. Dogs are not humans, so when someone says "Cesa's methods are not humanic" it makes me laugh - of course & they do not have to be! Dogs suffer when we treat them as humans same as we would suffer if someone would treat us as dogs.
So I wish to all dog owners to be calm & assertive pack leaders & to let theyr dogs be happy.
Good luck to all

By Uoga, at 4:27 AM, August 21, 2008
Cesar Milan sure knows his stuff. My wife attened one of his seminars and was impressed.

By richard, at 9:11 AM, August 30, 2008
Quit the bashing of Millan, no one is telling anyone that he is the only one to follow in correcting your pets. If he is the one you are comfortable with, then go for it, if not go for the one that is. I myself, see that Millan's main concern is that instead of killing those dogs who we think are terrible, awful animals, he sees a dog that can be changed and can be rehabilitated back into the environment to be loved and have a family. I give him thumbs up. I don't have a quarrel against any other dog trainer or what ever you call yourselves. As long as you give the animal a chance and just don't automatically set it up for failure and then kill them. So what if he is different, good lord if that was the reason to knocking someone down, then we would have to knock down every person alive on this earth. I am different, does that mean I am wrong, should I be put down. I know my view points aren't for everyone, and that's ok. I can listen to yours as well.

By Teresa, at 9:21 AM, August 31, 2008
I think perhaps it depends on the dog. For example, I have a VERY intelligent, energetic Jack Russel/Rat Terrier cross, a male. He can be a real handful sometimes, and at the same time he is one of the best dogs I've ever had. He is not motivated by food at all. Millan's training methods have worked wonders with him. And I should say I don't follow Millan's methods to the letter. I'm older and slightly arthritic, so I don't walk my dog for hours every day. I exercise him by throwing a ball or frisbee. But I definitely take a very firm tone and attitude with him.
The dog I had before was a female collie mix. She was intelligent, but not nearly as energetic. She was also highly motivated by food. Clicker training worked very well with her.
I think it'd good to keep in mind how incredibly adaptable dogs are - it's one of the reasons for their survival and success as a species (something else, by the way, they share with humans). Also there are huge differences in dog breeds, and in individual dogs within breeds. Again, very similar to people.
As someone who has worked with people "psychologically" for many years, I feel quite comfortable saying that any training/teaching
method for people or dogs is BOTH an art and a science. I have seen the wonderful things the science of psychology can do. But I have also seen some of it's many failures. It's a well known fact that people anthropomorphize (or project onto) animals, especially pets. One of the things people don't like Millan is that he keeps saying: They are dogs, they are NOT children or people, if you treat a dog like a human there is bound to be trouble. He's right! Another thing they don't like about him is that he keeps reminding us that dogs live on a very primal level - they are not civilized in our terms - you can take the dog out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the dog. It really isn't any different with us humans, in terms of science we are animals too, and just as primal. We've simply covered it up with a lot of foolishness and convinced ourselves we're something "higher" and "special."
I think the smartest way to train your dog is the method your dog responds to and therefore gets the best results. For some dogs Cesar Millan's method is the best.

By Margie, at 5:07 PM, September 01, 2008
I think perhaps it depends on the dog. For example, I have a VERY intelligent, energetic Jack Russel/Rat Terrier cross, a male. He can be a real handful sometimes, and at the same time he is one of the best dogs I've ever had. He is not motivated by food at all. Millan's training methods have worked wonders with him. And I should say I don't follow Millan's methods to the letter. I'm older and slightly arthritic, so I don't walk my dog for hours every day. I exercise him by throwing a ball or frisbee. But I definitely take a very firm tone and attitude with him.
The dog I had before was a female collie mix. She was intelligent, but not nearly as energetic. She was also highly motivated by food. Clicker training worked very well with her.
I think it'd good to keep in mind how incredibly adaptable dogs are - it's one of the reasons for their survival and success as a species (something else, by the way, they share with humans). Also there are huge differences in dog breeds, and in individual dogs within breeds. Again, very similar to people.
As someone who has worked with people "psychologically" for many years, I feel quite comfortable saying that any training/teaching
method for people or dogs is BOTH an art and a science. I have seen the wonderful things the science of psychology can do. But I have also seen some of it's many failures. It's a well known fact that people anthropomorphize (or project onto) animals, especially pets. One of the things people don't like Millan is that he keeps saying: They are dogs, they are NOT children or people, if you treat a dog like a human there is bound to be trouble. He's right! Another thing they don't like about him is that he keeps reminding us that dogs live on a very primal level - they are not civilized in our terms - you can take the dog out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the dog. It really isn't any different with us humans, in terms of science we are animals too, and just as primal. We've simply covered it up with a lot of foolishness and convinced ourselves we're something "higher" and "special."
I think the smartest way to train your dog is the method your dog responds to and therefore gets the best results. For some dogs Cesar Millan's method is the best.

By Margie, at 5:10 PM, September 01, 2008
Something that we all need to remember is that by the time Cesar sees most of the dogs on his show, they are at a dangerous level. Cesar cannot sit and wave treats in front of these dogs' faces and say, "Here doggie, doggie" because he'll get his face bit off. A lot of the time Cesar is the last hope for these dogs and even on a few rare occasions, he can't help someone. Of course we would all like to see dogs being given treats and Cesar using Pavlov-type training, but this is simply not possible with the dogs he sees. Just like his show states, Cesar takes cases where the dogs have turned an ugly corner and he helps bring them back to a balanced dog. Cesar is doing a good thing in that he is keeping dogs from being euthanized. He is also showing people the right way to handle dogs and helping people realize that dogs are NOT people. Dogs do not think like people and they use body language. Cesar teaches people how to read their dogs and deal with them. Let's face it, most people cannot read their dogs and they are clueless, which is what creates the problem dogs most of the time. Cesar is not beating dogs nor is he being cruel, he is saving lives. I have also seen Cesar show people how to use treats as well as recommend treats and certain training methods that Ian Dunbar also uses once the dog is back to being a normal dog. These people need guidance and they need to know that dogs need guidance, they need exercise, and a purpose in life, and Cesar teaches that.

By Anonymous, at 7:35 PM, September 01, 2008
i love his show. his methods work.

By Anonymous, at 11:00 AM, September 03, 2008
So happy to have stumbled upon this thread!!!

Its great to see open-minded people that see Cesar for what he is.

His methods are not barbaic or intimidating or hurting the dogs as these P+ only trainers make him out to be. His show usually shows the timeline for how long it took him to accomplish what he wanted. Sometimes it takes minutes, hours, days and even months when the dog goes to the Cesar Dog Rehab Center.

He ALWAYS states that the owners of the dogs must be consistent, they must follow up and repeat everything every day for the dog to remain balanced.

He never says that he is a miracle worker that fixes the dog in 20 minutes, as Alfonso Bedoya falsefally states at the top of this thread.

He uses a variety of methods including, DARE I SAY IT, Positive Reinforcement!!!!!

Cesar is great at what he does, loves what he is doing, and it shows, and is popular beyond his wildest dreams!

After seeing Victoria Stillwell on Greatest American Dog, The P+ only crowd of trainers should be hanging their heads in disbelief of how bad she came off looking on Greatest American Dog!!

By rb999999, at 10:58 AM, September 13, 2008
I was doing great training my dogs by myself using techniques I got from Brian Kilcommons, Cesar Millan, and the Monks of New Skete. I thought I'd do the responsible thing and take my dogs to professional obedience classes. I always thought that the methods of Millan, Kilcommons, and the New Skete Monks seemed very gentle and positive, so I simply wasn't prepared for the bitterness and spite the "positive reinforcement only" trainers direct against everybody else. After having several of the illustrious "positive reinforcement" trainers who live here in Madison, WI mess up my dogs' training, I'm trying really hard to find a balanced dog trainer in the area. My Belgian Malinois mix is really looking hard for a decent trainer here in Madison. He would much rather have me communicate clearly with him through a leash correction than bribe him with food and confuse him with clicking noises and excited baby talk. Positive reinforcement fanatics have undone a lot of hard work that my dog and I had done together, and now we're looking for a real trainer to help us get back on the right track. If you are a "positive reinforcement only" trainer, please try to make the movement less dogmatic and spiteful. It doesn't work for all dogs.

By Chris, at 8:53 PM, September 15, 2008
Besides stating "do not try this at home without a professional" programs also need to state that if you have no common sense or tend to not pay attention, do not watch. Many of the posts I have read here that are anti-César, state examples I have just not seen. Therefore, I will have to watch it more to see (boosting ratings higher).But regardless what method an individual prefers or supports, people have a responsibility to use common sense and if they cannot, the problem is not Cesar or any other trainer. I believe the program focuses on dogs with bad, difficult or un-social behavior. I have never been given the impression that I can help a distressed or troubled dog alone and in 20 minutes by watching César. Nor would any reasonable person make that assumption. Quite frankly, I do not claim that Cesar, or anyone for that matter, is the all knowing; different approaches for different situations. I do know, just like being around children that have had no discipline or a boundary, being around a dog without the same seems just as undesirable.

By Anonymous, at 10:32 AM, September 21, 2008
I'll never understand why there's always someone who has to complain about something or someone that they don't agree with!!!!! I haven't even heard of Ian Dunbar, so I can't comment. Cesar certainly knows what he's doing, & it works, nuff said! I wish people could just keep their negative comments to themselves! Beak

By Karen, at 12:43 PM, September 25, 2008
How SAD that people who bash Cesar Milan take the time to write about him. Instead of giving off the NEGATIVE ENERGY that you feel towards his methods of training, sit down on a Friday evening, and watch his shows. Back to back. See his methods. And, if you feel this is not right for your dog, then don't apply his methods. Funny how people will bad-mouth Cesar, yet their own dogs are totally out of control. Oh, of course, they will say...NOT MY DOG.
So, watch whoever you want. One trainer reinforces BAD BEHAVIOR by giving them treats. Now, there's common sense!!! Everyone has the right to change the channel. Don't care for Cesar? Change the channel. It's true...some people , no matter what you do for them, wouldn't be happy even with a free lunch...They would STILL complain.

By Linda, at 4:35 AM, September 26, 2008
If you want to get a good laugh from a Professional Dog Training Company that is so threatened by Cesar Millan's Success go to the following website addresses.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
These people cannot possibly be watching the same show that I watch and come up with this BS. They act like Cesar Alpha rolls and chokes each dog that he rehabilitates!!! Why do the dogs come up to Cesar with tails wagging on follow up visits if they are so fearful of him? I guess they think that if they say it enough people will start believing them instead of believing what they see with their own eyes!! The example of Jonbee is utterly ridiculous!! They must have missed the part that numerous dog trainers said that Jonbee should be PTS and Cesar was a last resort. After being rehabilitated, nstead of the owner putting Jonbee up for adoption as he did the other rescue dogs, the owners became so attached to Jonbee that he became their pet and attended the 100th Episode Dog Whisperer Celebration and he is now a well balanced dog.
Cesar is now an Honorary Member of the International Association of Canine Professionals. http://www.dogpro.org/

By rb99999, at 4:42 PM, October 04, 2008
I am the owner of 3 dogs, 7 year old Lab, 7 year old american eskimo and a 2 year old spaniel-pug cross. Until I started watching The Dog Whisperer, I was at my wits end with my dogs. They would jump all over people at our door (friend or stranger) and bark maniacally at anyone who dared to come near our yard or house. While they were never aggressive toward any animal or human, their behavior was unacceptable and I was only complicating matters, because I was like many others...my dogs were my babies.

I did take my lab to a certified trainer and when her methods did not correct his over enthusiasm, she told me that he was a very silly dog that would probably never fully grasp training. So for 7 years we (and anyone who comes to our door) had to contend with our crazy overly affectionate dogs.

I now implement many of Ceasar's methods with much success! My dogs are more manageable and calm, they respect peoples boundries and they listen to me!!! Formerly they only listened to my husband (as they saw him as the only alfa in our home).

I completely agree with Ceasar's methods and methodology. If you are like me and you have endured being critisized by friends and family for your bad mannered pets then you understand that when you put Ceasar's methods into practise, what a sense of accomplishment it is for you and your pet.

I don't claim to know who Ian Dunbar is and frankly I could care less what his opinions or degrees are. I had a seriously ill child a year ago and we saw several specialists (leading researchers in the field of childrens' medicine) who all claimed that nothing at all was wrong with our 17 year old, but my instinct told me different and I persisted to seek out an answer. Thank God i did, for all their degrees, theorizing and research pontificating, they were wrong and had i not gone with my instinct my child could have lost a lung. So forgive me if i am not impressed with the all these "dog specialists" with their degrees and research papers. Book learning only goes so far...theories only go so far...research only goes so far. Without good instincts and sensibility (which if you have even watched 1 episode of The Dog Whisperer you would see that Ceasar Millan has in spades), you have nothing. Theories and placebos only go so far. If you want change it has to be implemented. And Ceasar illustrates just that.

I also feel that many of these nay-sayers are only using the success of The Dog Whisperer to get their names in print. I have never heard Ceasar Millan speak against any other method of training or disparage another trainer's character or method. He simply does what he does and is very humble and gracious about his talent and success.

By Anonymous, at 1:19 PM, October 05, 2008
Positive reinforcement can be an effective technique, but it is far from the only one. The positive reinforcement ONLY movement has become a cult, and a lucrative one for certain trainers. Like other cults, it rests on a claim of moral superiority, and a demonizing of alternative approaches. When actual results contradict these claims, they are denied and disbelieved. The positive reinforcement fanatics are taking an essentially religious stance toward what are, in fact, empirical questions. These are True Believers who need to recognized for what they are.

By Byron, at 9:12 PM, October 09, 2008
I have a question. A few times I saw Millan's "pack" on his TV show. It always shows his dogs on what looks like a concrete parking lot. He said once he had 50 dogs. Where are all of his dogs and do these dogs at his center always live at this unsheltered concrete lot?

By Anonymous, at 9:30 PM, October 10, 2008
to the anon who asks about Cesars concrete DPCenter. It's in South Central LA. Used to be a warehouse on the lot but he takes the dogs to parks, the ocean, on long walks thru the hills and is in the process of building a new Center in a more optimal location.

By Mary, at 11:02 PM, October 10, 2008
Wow, lots of arguments... most unnecessary. Firstly I'd like to point out that training your dog will be more effective if you read and watch a large variety of sources. That being said, I'd like to defend both Dunbar and Millan as they've both been influential on my view of dog training.

Dunbars work has been very helpful to me and many of my friends. Most of us have dogs that are non-aggressive, well mannered, and just needed to learn basic obedience. We've used his methods to teach Sit, Down, Rollover, and loose leash. I'll continue to incorporate his ideas into my dogs daily routine because they've worked for me and many of my friends.

Mr. Millan has also been helpful. I apply his "Exercise, Discipline, Affection" theory to great success. I find my dog more receptive after a long jog and is less likely to engage in behaviors that I dislike. These behaviors being the dogs efforts to free himself from boredom.

When my parents adopted an aggressive German Shepard we found that expunging his energy (through a long jog) made him easier to train and less likely to growl, nip, and bark. This was our window to apply Dunbars methods with him (the discipline part of Millans formula) When he did well, we praised the dog, pet him and gave him treats(affection... ala Dunbar).

So, my point is that you should create a mix of methods to make up your training regimen. Read as much as possible and apply what makes sense for you, your dog, and how you want your dog to behave.

-M

By Matthew, at 8:44 AM, October 13, 2008
I'm a supporter of Millan, because his method does work AND I don't think its as brutal as people claim it to be... If my child is extremely misbehaving despite my warnings, I would send him to timeout or slap his hand or buttocks to show I mean business. Similiar to dogs, sometimes a child does not understand why it's wrong to do something, therefore would choose to disobey the parent's command. I think a controlled physical punishment is warranted. Punishment was ONly done when I was calm.

After watching Cesar Millan, I learned not to spoil my new dog like I did with my previous one. Instead of spoiling the dog, I learned to see that they are not humans, but as beloved DOGS. I also learned that dogs have dog rules. I also become more patient with my new dog, since Cesar constantly preaches calm and assertive, which worked VERY well for my dog. My new dog is now much more well behaved than before! He doesn't chew up furnitures or charge at children anymore. The (gentle but FIRM) collar tug and a sharp (Ah Ah) was only used the first few times to let my dog understand that I do not like his actions and that I MEAN business. Soon after that, all I need to do was say "Ah Ah" or "SSh" and it seemed my dog understood that I do not approve of whatever he was doing. I thank Cesar for his show for changing my view on relationships between my dogs and I.

By Anonymous, at 12:42 PM, October 16, 2008
I have worked with dogs with behavioral problems for 11 years. I have no degrees in animal psychology, but I am very familiar with Dunbar. He is great as far as positive training goes. As for Cesar Millan, he is my hero. He rehabilitates dogs that Dunbar and others who follow only positive methods (Victoria Stillwell, who cried that she was the be-all end all of dog training) would tell you cannot be rehabilitated. When Cesar Millan came onto television, he raised dog owner awareness, and also gave dogs who were seemingly un-fixable, a second chance. It is not about who is better, it is all about giving dogs the best chance at life that they can have. And no matter who's teachings you subscribe to, that 'end' goal should be the focus. Cesar gives you solutions that used with the right energy and calm focus, give a dog a chance at rehabilitation and a happy life. I use Dunbar's methods and Cesar's depending on what type of issue I am dealing with. I am never cruel or abusive. I do what I do for the love of these canines and everyone is grumbling about which dog experts are right and wrong. They both deserve credit, but for raising dog owner awareness and making life better for dogs all across America, Cesar Millan is a doggy hero. And people who once felt hopeless about their beloved dogs no longer do.
My final word is, if a dog trainer ever tells you your dog needs to be put to sleep. Get your money back and call another expert!

By Anonymous, at 6:25 PM, October 20, 2008
hmm I feel like I have opened an enormous can of worms...
First of all I know little about dogs as yet, but as a new owner of a border terrier pup I am trying to educate myself very quickly and have bought or borrowed several training manuals and also Cesars first book.
I assumed all would be simple but soon found I needed a bit of guidance as the terrier in my pup was resulting in some ravaged ankles and as I have a 2,4 and a 6 year old I wanted to nip that particular tendancy in the bud, we are also having a few problems at night with barking.
I enlisted the help of a local trainer to come to my home which was great. Lovely lady and all that, came armed with clicker and treats and all is going well with the sit and down thing though not much more as yet.
However, on her last visit I mentioned I had been doing lots of reading, her handouts included, and also a book by some guy called Cesar Millan. I had been expecting a pat on the back for effort so her reaction completely stunned me, I felt like I had just committed some dreadful faux pas! She went on and on about how inhumane he was, unethical, no degree!!!! How the TV series was done over weeks not days and you just didn't see the electric collars, alpha rollovers and incredible cruelty which went on behind the scenes. She added that she had signed various petitions to ban his show then went on to admit she had only seen one TV show and hadn't read his books!
She has told me to go to the library and get one of Mr Dunbars books out, which I will simply so as not to fall in to the trap of criticising what I know nothing about!
As a non dog person (yet)I really bought in to Cesars philosophy and there is nothing in his book or on any of the shows I have seen which indicate guilt of any of the crimes my trainer accused him of.
Incidently, though my 15 week pup will sit, down and walk nicely on the lead he still managed to ravage the trainers legs the other day. I have been told to shout NO loudly and walk away (easier said than done), however this didn't work and she ended up throwing treats on to the grass and retreating to the house. When he followed he was put in his crate for 30 secs then rewarded with more treats! I'm giving all the benefit of doubt at the moment and going with the prescribed instruction as he is still pretty young and we are only 2 weeks in to training. However my gut instinct is I am not addressing the problem and I may be heading for a problem.
Basically what I am trying to say is that despite my trainers warnings I am impressed, to reiterate what others have said it all seems a bit like sour grapes to me, surely there is a time and a place for all methods - if only I knew which ones and when!

By Anonymous, at 1:51 PM, October 22, 2008
All I want to say is this: At least Cesar Milan is introducing dog training to the masses. All those misunderstood dogs out there have a chance to be understood better now that people are interested in his show. I'm sure he has helped thousands of dogs to a more balanced and happier life. His show gives confidence to people to try and that is much better than keeping the problem hidden and locked up causing more problems.

By Richard, at 6:52 PM, October 29, 2008
One can only tailor training to the dog. Right now I am having problems with male on male aggression with a dog who is a chow mix and never socialized properly. We found him abandoned by our mailbox. I previously had a golden retriever who was an anxious mess. The golden retriever responded well to only positive reinforcement and ignoring unwanted behaviors. This is not going to work with the chow mix. He is a totally different dog. The problems are pack issues with other male dogs. He is a hundred percent better with people now. I for one am totally unsure on how to proceed. It is difficult to "ignore" the unwanted behaviors of a dog fight that results in a vet bill.

By Anonymous, at 6:15 AM, October 30, 2008
I don't know either of these guys. One has a TV show and one doesn't. Cesar's method WORK. I bet Ian's methods WORK also.

I do know that Cesar was hooked up with major league media types. One of his "regulars" is Will Smith's dog.

What media exec wouldn't see dollar signs when this guys in your house "fixing" your animal. He's fun, people gravitate to energy like his.

By Anonymous, at 1:14 PM, October 30, 2008
I have used positive training on our golden retriever. It only worked to a certain extent. Then I enrolled him in a more traditional training class (choke collar, corrections, an hour of practice a day) That only worked to a certain extent as well. Although not a problem dog at all, he still had his own agenda.

What worked finally was using Cesar Millan's methods of establishing leadership with my dog. I get more response, trust, and good behavior out of treating him as a pack member and giving him dog chores to do, and much exericise, than I ever got from either of the training classes.

The difference between training and dog psychology is obvious. One considers the whole dog; the other teaches rote learning only.

By Anonymous, at 7:51 PM, November 11, 2008
This post has been removed by the author.

By Sharon, at 6:06 AM, November 13, 2008
I can't believe there are people who have issue with Cesar Millan's methods. If you watch his show, you will NEVER see a dog yelp in pain due to handling or see Cesar getting aggressive with ANY dog.You NEED to watch the show more than two times to get him...And....in NO WAY does he say that a problem can be fixed in 20 minutes. Where do you get that from. Cesar corrects the problem and it is up to the pet parents to continue on that path. That is why at the end of the show they go back to the dog and pet parents to see how they've progressed after some time has passed, and they give an update. I work with dogs and Cesar's methods have helped me tremendously.

Cesar creates no myths....he creates solutions that are based on nature, and if they didn't work, he wouldn't continue to use the methods he does.

By Sharon, at 6:07 AM, November 13, 2008
I bet you a hundred bucks if you sat the two down together in a San Francisco dog park or in a an LA dog pack the two would go off happily conniving together.

It's like musicians. "Ohh classical is good, metal is bad, don't you hate eachother?" No, while the public is busy with their egotistical hate fest the musicians are writing songs.

Dunbar and Millan aren't enemies. They are on the same side.

Another point for those who say ivory tower laboratory science is the only kind that matters. Science is observation. Millan spent years, observing dogs in a natural state (off leash living with humans and working for them in a way humans and dogs have lived for thousands of years). Everybody thinks Jane Goodall is a genius because she did the same thing. The difference? Millan hasn't published any papers.

Who knew more? Thomas Jefferson, Lewis and Clark, or Saccegiwia (sp)?

Dunbar has more experience and biology backing him up. So let them learn from each other.

By Anonymous, at 8:28 PM, November 18, 2008
Wow - so many points to comment on!

Comparing Milan to Dunbar - some people have commented that while Dunbar has degrees in vet science and animal behaviour, Milan has a wealth of experience. Erm - perhaps it has not occured to such people that Dunbar actually has BOTH a sound theoretical knowledge AND a wealth of experience? Of course I believe experience is vital - but without the background knowledge it is easy to misinterpret what you see - which is part of Milan's problem. He assumes dogs are all wolves (they are not - they differ in many ways, including brains and behaviours. He assumes all behaviour problems are dominance related (most are not).
Theory isn't everything - but it certainly helps to have a sound understanding of the dog's natural behaviours and insticts, how it learns, etc. This knowledge is something Dunbar has in abundance and Milan not at all.

As usual we have been divided into the yank'em brigade and the cookie pushers. Just because some of us do not believing in Milan's violent methods, does not mean we do not believe in boundaries and discipline. For those of you with no theroetical knowledge of animal behaviour, consider this. Animals do nothing "for the hell of it". They perform behaviours because they are instinctive, or because they are rewarding. Behaviours that are rewarded in some way are more likely to be repeated. Behaviours that are NOT rewarded are unlikely to be repeated. The simplest, most humane way, to stop unwanted behaviours is to remove the reward. Punishment is simply unnecessary.

This does not mean not bothering to train the dog, or allowing bad behaviour. The trainer needs to actively ensure the reward (whatever it is) is removed.

Most "positive" trainers are quite happy to use negative punishment, or alternatives such as mild aversives or non-reward markers (eg training discs).
Those that do use positive punishment may choose spray collars, verbal reprimands, etc - just not anything that causes physical pain or fear.

Of course, punishment can be effective. However, scientific evidence shows that for punishment to be effective it must be severe. So you have the choice of causing substantial suffering, or having no effect. Not a great choice in my opinion.

Unlike positive reinforcement training methods, punishment is also high risk.

Risk to the dog - Violent physical punishment can result in serious psychological harm causing the dog to become extremely fearful and/or aggressive. It can also cause physical injury (particularly in the case of choke, prong and shock collars).

Punishment risks various unwanted side effects, from actually making the problem behaviour worse to causing aggression (the dog associates a particular stimulus with pain).

This translates into further risks for the owner and other people - a dog that is stressed or fearful because of punitive training is more likely to bite. Has no one wondered why so many of Milan's clips have a "do not try this at home" warning? Go ahead and alpha roll your dog - if you don't mind a bite in the face!

The unfortunate effects of punishment can also be extreme and long lasting. For example, one study showed that dogs trained using punitive methods showed more signs of stress even outside of the training environment - they associated their handlers with bad things happening and were anxious. The same study also showed that this stress response could continue for years, even after the punitive training had ceased. In other words - physical punishment won't just harm the dog immediately, it will cause long term problems.

So many people seem to assume that physical punishment is the only option for certain dogs. This is simply not true. The positive trainers are not saying that difficult dogs should be put down. Any training method should be suited to the needs of the individual dog, and must be done correctly (good timing etc). It is certainly possible to cure phobias, aggression, leash pulling, and any other problem without physically assaulting the dog. Using positive methods is equally effective - usually more so - is more likely to last, is more humane, and has no unwanted side effects or risks.

Yes, Milan appeared to "cure" the collie attacking tractors using a shock collar. What he didn't bother to tell the viewers is that this dog has a high chance of going back to this behaviour in the not too distant future. Or that it is likely to be worse because now the dog "knows" that tractors are bad and scary. Or that the dog may be stressed and fearful whenever tractors are present.
Had the dog been retrained using positive methods - particularly systematic desensitisation - the collie would no longer have any reason to dislike tractors so the behaviour would be more likely to be permanently stopped. A more effective, long term solution without causing the dog pain or fear.

A final note about "theory" and "experts"...
The science on which positive reinforcement is based comes from years of study. We have plenty of evidence that positive methods are far more effective than punishment. We know for a fact that not only is punishment unpleasent by definition but can cause a variety of problems. We know that dogs learn through association, and that forming bad associations leads to further welfare and behaviour probelms. We know that positive reinforcement can be used in ANY training application - from training a goldfish to swim through a hoop, to lab animals sitting for an injection or blood sample, to performing dolphins, to training dogs as family pets, working dogs, or competition dogs. It is used with great effect on people too.

Clearly - ALL the "theory" syggest that positive reinforcement is preferable in terms of effectiveness, welfare, risk etc. Their is a massive amount of experience of these theories working.

I accept we may not yet have developed any perfect training method, but certainly some methods are better than others. Milan's entire concept of dog behaviour is deeply flawed (i.e. downright false). His methods are not the most effective and they cause unnecessary suffering, putting both dogs and owners at risk.

Of course much of this debate is happening because Milan is now popular on TV. This is what makes it so much of a problem. There are still other trainers out there advocating yank'em methods - but most members of the public have never heard of them. With Milan's show however, the public are routinely being told that it is acceptable - even necessary - to physicaly abuse dogs in the name of training.

Personally I think I dislike Milan's hypocrisy most of all. He claims be a dog lover, yet there is no evidence of him ever using any positive reinforcement. He talks about "calm assertive energy" and leadership yet relies on violence and physical force. There is nothing calm about physically manhandling a dog. He claims it is wrong to hit a dog, yet jabs them in the neck with his hands. This is somehow different?

Seriously - there are many true experts on dog training and behaviour. People with sound background knowledge and understand, as well as experience of training and rehabilitating dogs. Milan is not one of them.

By crazywiggy, at 3:42 PM, November 24, 2008
Millan Doesn't assume dogs are wolves!!!!

And because of that reason alone, it throws your whole long ad nauseum argument against him out the window!!

Watch, listen, learn from what Millan is saying!!!

By Anonymous, at 1:27 PM, November 25, 2008
I just have to say, I LOVE the Dog Whisperer. Cesar Millan is great. He knows what he is doing. And he helps alot of people and thier pets. any one saying bad things about Cesar, Thier just jeaslous.

By no1cesarfan, at 1:43 PM, November 25, 2008
Molly, the dog that attacked the tractor, and had already lost one eye was not a collie!! Do you even watch the show?

Here is what Cesar Said:

Contrary to misstatements by some critics, I do not advocate the permanent use of electric or prong collars or similar devices. I do, however, believe in using the right tool for the right situation, though solely for training purposes, with the idea that with proper instruction and consistency, the tools will eventually no longer be needed. No two dogs are alike. And their life experiences differ with each case. I felt that the use of the e-collar was best for Molly, in order to save her life. In her two short years, she had already lost an eye, some teeth, and survived a run-in with a tractor tire. The next one could be her last. What she needed was a deterrence -- an understanding that the tractor tires were off-limits. The collar provided that physical connection. We made sure that the setting of the e-collar was not high enough to cause Molly any pain. As you will see, she passed with flying colors and her owners were able to remove the e-collar after two months. In my opinion, an e-collar can be a life-saving tool, like a defibrillator to an EMT. But neither tool is meant to be a permanent solution. The tried and true principals of solid pack leadership were what ultimately corrected Molly.

He uses positive methods more often then negative methods. Why not try ACTUALLY watching his shows or READING his books!!!

Instead you'd prefer to post all sorts of innaccuracies regarding him. Cesar has never physically abused a dog!!!! If he did, he would have been out of business a long time ago!!

The WARNING on the show is because some people might watch and think they can now go out and cure any vicious, violent dog!!

Cesar owns over 30 dogs!
They don't look abused, but then again, It is obvious you don't actually watch his show!

You Positive only trainers come off looking jealous. Bullying people and posting outright lies about Cesar Millan is not going to help your cause. I am still trying to figure out what your cause is. I guess it is twofold: Number 1 - Get Dog Whisperer off the air, and Number 2 -Make sure everybody hires positive method only trainers. Good luck to you, you are gonna need it, LOL!!

By Anonymous, at 1:58 PM, November 25, 2008
I see now where you got the idea that Molly was a Collie. It was mistakenly stated in an earlier post.

Molly was a Blue Heeler - Australian Cattle Dog.

That PROVES 100% that you did not watch the episode and probably have never seen any of his shows.

If you are going to make up stuff, at least do a little research to make yourself sound credible. Molly, a 1 1/2-year-old blue heeler in Nebraska, had been chasing her owner Mark Eggers’ pickup truck to the point where, one day, she caught the tire, her teeth stuck, and she flipped over.

By Anonymous, at 4:35 PM, November 25, 2008
"I know nothing of Ian Dunbar and I'm no Millan acolyte, but I couldn't get past the first sentence of that article without my eyes rolling. There's so much anti-Millan rhetoric from people in the doggy world who just love to pretend to be high and mighty."

I have to agree with this. Millan is an acute observer of dog behavior.

Most of his techniques work on my dogs. That said, I also see what other dog behaviorists, like Patricia McConnell, have to say. However, some of the pompous vitriol from the anti-Millan folk is a real turn-off. Maybe they should just try to get their own TV show.

I do see jealousy here. When it comes to wild animals, I see animal behaviorists giving more respect to those, such as indigenous peoples, who have lived all of their lives in close contact with wild animals, and know their ways..not so Cesar Millan's would be competitors.

Many of us who watch Millan and try his methods are not so stupid as to believe "all problems can be fixed in 20 minutes"

By Anonymous, at 3:33 PM, November 28, 2008
How very interesting. I am curious what people think of ITV 'me or the dog' with a female trainer, whose name has already escaped my memory. All I remember is the red sports car in which she drives and is paid vast sums of money to belittle the dogs and insult the owners. My views are that this is television and what people pay to watch. I have been a dog trainer for over 30 years, living in a pack and designed my own technique. All I can say is prevention is better than cure. I learned from the dogs, by observation and dealing with individual situations as presented, appealing to the animal's nature and basic common sense. I'm a pretty powerful person and highly skilled, but so what, the people that benefit are those dogs I am engaged with. They are happy. The rest is not important. Life's reality is that dog owners to date, still believe they are their own best trainers and until they are ready and willing to learn from those with experience, have an open mind, focusing on the welfare of the dog in training, jealousies do not play a part in any of this. I'm glad that people are expressing their views and opinions, as this is the guidelines that I shall bear in mind. There is no discrimination, rather there should only be consideration and joy for those who create better lives for dogs and their families.
Mercia

By Mercia, at 2:56 AM, December 06, 2008
To state that Dunbar is better with dogs because he is a Vet and scholar is outrageous. I lived on a dairy farm in my late teens and learned more about animals from farmers than any other training ever.

I've only had 13 dogs, but the ones after that experience were the best behaved dogs. You don't learn that at a university, you learn it from people that have been with animals in nature all their lives.

Cesar's way is natures way. Watch a farmer with 250 head of Holsteins, perfectly calm and in charge. Ever get pinned to a wall by a 800 pound cow? I did, I was nervous and angry and she knew it. All he said was "Why do work against nature?"

The "science" of it is observing behavior and responding appropriately. The touch and not talking, with the right energy works every time. What course teaches that?

Academics scare me because people believe their qualified by virtue of a degree. Nonsense!

Ever see a homeless person chasing or reeling in a dog? Their natural leaders.

Too many people make training so complex, that it's beyond the capability of people without a show or book deal. The fact is it is simple. Dogs don't share our mental complexity (thank God) and are wonderful and simple animals. Balance them and they'll be happy forever.

By Anonymous, at 12:38 PM, December 17, 2008
Being an owner of 5 Border collies two of which are young siblings and at times being at my wits end, cesar has taught me one valuable thing-to be calm in every situation that occurs. I have been known to shout and curse in the past which just reinforces the dogs bad behaviour. Now using a few methods I've seen him do, they have started to listen. Still got a long way to go though, but am going to invest in one of his books.

Does anyone recommend his books?

By Anonymous, at 4:15 AM, December 30, 2008
Check out "Be the pack leader" it really helped me put all the pieces together with my dogs. I was too assertive, some dogs would pee themselves when I corrected them. I never hit a dog, I scared them because I was assertive angry, not calm. It works!

By Anonymous, at 9:42 AM, December 30, 2008
Wow! Interesting thread. I so agree with the post that said Dunbar and Millan are not enemies. I bet neither of them is worried about this debate! The reality is, the successful trainer will train to their strengths. I am a teacher (of human children), a horse trainer, and I have successfully trained/rehabilitated 7 of my own personal rescue dogs - all large breed, all with major issues. I know I am not stronger than my dogs or horses, so I know better than to get in to a battle of strenght with them just as I know not to get in to a battle of wits with a teenager. I do know that what Millan calls "energy" and others call "dominance" is the key with ANY species - including humans. Anger/frustration/fear are all unbalanced energy and nobody responds well to that. Clear boundaries (however you enforce them), set with calm, positive energy work every time - even with my five barn cats ha!!
Any trainer worth their salt knows that even if they don't verbalize it as such - Millan, Dunbar, The Monks of New Skeete, all share this trait, they are leaders, they are calm, and they are balanced, and not only to they project positive energy, they project genuine affection for the animals they are working with.

By Anonymous, at 4:58 PM, January 03, 2009
Dog training IS a science. Operant and classical conditioning to be specific. There isn't much art to it -- it's science through and through. Any trainer who DOES claim that there's some sort of mystery to dog training clearly doesn't know the science. Reminds me of a snake-oil salesman...geared toward money and fame, not results.

By Laurie Luck, CPDT, at 8:15 AM, January 06, 2009
Admittedly, I know little of dog training other than what I have seen on TV, Cesar, Monks of New Skete, Good Dog U, Victoria Stillwell... But I have to say, I have used some of Millan's methods with success on my dog. But the majority of my success is due to the one thing that Cesar constantly points to: the message the TRAINER sends to the dog needs to be calm and assertive. I think Cesar's success is due to the fact that he trains PEOPLE at least as much or more than he trains dogs. I have found it hard to be calm and assertive when I'm angry with my dog, but recently I have had more success with the message I send my dog. This is not to say that Cesar or Dunbar is the ultimate authority. I've taken pieces from all the TV training shows with success. What I think helps is that these shows are a real asset for VISUAL LEARNERS. "One picture is worth a million words" may be trite but for many of us it's also true!

megtoo

By Anonymous, at 3:38 PM, January 06, 2009
Alright. There's not much to be said here that hasn't already, but a couple of points:
1. Why is anyone surprised that the "experts" disagree about techniques? This simple statement could be made about anything from carpentry to child psychology. In academia, "experts" disagree all the time. Two different students can come away from the same university lecture drawing different, even opposing, conclusions from what they have just learned from another "expert".
2. In reference to the statements made about dogs being 15,000 years removed from the wolves from which they are descended, and not being pack animals: I have seen with my own eyes, in the semi-rural area where I live, "packs" of lost or abandoned domesticated dogs. I have witnessed, with my own dogs, that the older dogs will inevitably "correct" undesirable behavior in a new dog introduced to the "pack".
3. How on earth do you use positive reinforcement techniques to correct unwanted behavior? I know positive reinforcement works to teach dogs simple obedience commands like "sit" or "shake", but when exactly do you reward when your dog is engaging in unwanted behavior? It seems instinctive that you can only reward when the behavior is wanted, and correct when it is unwanted. When did using correction techniques such as a firm tug on the leash come to be viewed as barbaric and outdated in the dog-training world? I have seen Mr. Millan use toys and treats (albeit occasionally) on his show to make a positive association with something previously feared; in one case it was a collar. I see him giving dogs affection as well, just not at inappropriate times such as when dog is behaving badly. And I have seen Victoria Stillwell, cited in previous comments as being a positive only- style trainer, use punishment, i.e. placing a dog in a secluded and gated area, to reinforce that a behavior was unwanted. It really seems like a no-brainer: reward when the behavior is desired, correct when it is not. When did it become all one or the other? Incidentally, two things both of these t.v. trainers absolutely seem to agree on is that an un-exercised and un-socialized (with other dogs) dog is a problem waiting to happen, and it amazes me when dog-owners seem bewildered by their dogs' poor behavior when they never bother to walk them: "But I let them run around the back yard when they're not in their crate!" Please!
I currently have two amazing, happy, balanced, loyal, well-trained and obedient dogs. They were trained by my husband and me, using "techniques" that came to us using our common sense; not from any experts' books, television shows, scholarly papers or dissertations. We have always used a combination of reward and correction, and it's worked very well for us. Of course, we adopted all of our dogs as puppies. We've never adopted an older dog who came with behavioral issues. If we ever do, I would suspect that Mr. Millan's techniques would prove very effective.

By Anonymous, at 6:24 AM, January 08, 2009
i am a volunteer for a local dog shelter. i see how they treat the dogs with no discipline at all. no wonder it takes time for dogs to get rid of bad habits (if not at all) or adopted because we dont enforce discipline. when i saw Cesar Millan, i know exactly what was missing.

i dont get mad or frustrated. just be calm and assertive. that's the true pack leader.

By Anonymous, at 11:24 AM, January 08, 2009
Can't people speak their truths and opinons. Without feeling like they must sign themselves anonymous.

I admire both men. And feel that they have done alot for people to wake up and take notice of the needs of their dogs.

And there is more than one way to train dogs well, as Ian Dunbar is the first to say.

By Mena, at 11:54 PM, January 09, 2009
I have a comment to make here about the dominance issue. (Milans' use of alpha roll) My sister once volunteered at the SPCA for several years and she became known for being great with animals, but especially with dogs. She used the "roll" and the "bite" pin with her hand, and the fussy dog would calm down and listen. Obviously this has to be repeated to become conditioned, but she was using similar techniques that Milan uses. She was very much an "Alpha", and the animals recognized her as such. When she got into a relationship where she became "submissive" to her partner, and her partner himself was also a submissive-type person(not assertive at all, and thus she also became less assertive), her command and ability to control his dog and hers is now to the point where she can not leave her bedroom because his dog will not let her leave it. This dog displays a lot of the behavior the dogs in the show exhibit, and I noticed that her dog, a well behaved pomeranian was rewarded for good behavior by getting more walks and "training fun" like agility courses. The "Bad" dog's behavior was treated by having him sent to the retired parents' house where he is walked just till washroom, and is left in the quiet house with no attention given to him because he would then sleep all day. Can you guess his behavior just worsened? He jumps, lunges, barks and howls at the slightest noise, person, dog often in the middle of the night for attention. They believe the problem is that stimulation is creating the bad behavior. She had long stopped the "roll and pin" and at one point after a while she tried to get near him she got bit and stopped. I believe that this dog could benefit from Milan's type of rehabilitation, as this dog snarls and bites people, defends food, toys, rooms, couches and "his person", does not LISTEN AT ALL, and is overly exitable and noisy. Whereas, the "good dog" benefits from learning new tricks and good behavior taught using positive training. He works harder and longer for praise, but the other one passed three stages of dog training obedience school and is MORE unruly than before. From this minor observation I can say that both points of view are good, but it depends on the dog. Positive reinforcement is doing nothing for the "bad" dog, and poor handling of those situations merely compounded the unwanted behavior.

By Anonymous, at 4:06 AM, January 21, 2009
I used to really like Cesar until I discovered he used pinch collars on his kids and had an electronic collar for his wife Illusion.

I also don't think you should ever use his methods on a cat. I tried grabbing one by the neck and holding it down in the position of submission. Lost a ton of skin off both arms. Don't do it.

By koitaki, at 10:45 AM, January 22, 2009
Dog training is not a science. If that were a true statement, that dog training is a science, then man for thousands of years would have been unable to train dogs because there was no science to be found. Science is just now only catching up to dog training and perfecting an art that's been around for thousands of years. Hogwash.

As for "experts," I have to listen to "experts" speak on nearly a daily basis. It's like one man said, "Experts are like jukeboxes. Put a dime in it, and it'll play any tune you want to hear."

But it's still the regular lay person that gets to decide the fate of many prisoners, not the "experts."

Our founding fathers saw good use of everyday common sense. No reason to abandon that now.

And common sense dictates, hey, if it works and you believe it's the right thing to do, do it.

As for me, I see nothing but good in what Millan teaches. I'm sure there are other good teachers out there who offer other good points too. After all, no one man has the corner market on intelligence.

By Anonymous, at 9:23 AM, January 24, 2009
Alfonso, i have read lots of Millans books and studied his work. He himself is quick to tell the viewers of Dog Whisperer that his methods are not taught in the time of the show. Millan did self teach himself about dogs but has learned so so so much about dogs that he deserves to be where he is today. Yes, Dunbar is equally a genious in this field but you cannot fault somebodys methods if they continue to produce results. Why cant Dunbar AND Millan be recognized for the greater good that they are doing for dogs?

By Anonymous, at 6:51 AM, January 26, 2009
It's all opinion! The reason why Cesar Milan gets a bad rap is because he tends to be more physical when treating VERY aggressive dogs. What people forget is that dogs are not children. They have natural instincts which are much violent than that of humans. Sometimes some physical reinforcement is needed, it's exactly what parent dogs will do to their puppies.

I have nothing against either style, for each one might work better for different cases. However, some people feel that Cesar is outdated or old fashioned, therefore not a good trainer. It's a similar argument (though not comparing too) that of evolution of raising children. Many people feel that children are much more spoiled and much more "wild" now than in the past (I understand their are millions of variables, however it is all relative). Point being, modernizing does not ALWAYS mean more progressing.. but sometimes changing.

Example: Physically discipling children (not abuse) was much more prevelant with our grandparents generations. Have children changed that much over the years? Some would argue children are more violent now than then. (please understand I am not comparing children to dogs, I am pointing out similar ideologies supporting claims of disciplinary "change").

By Anonymous, at 9:29 PM, January 26, 2009
I find it funny how people jump all over Cesar's methods. I would love to see someone try to use all positive reinforcement on a posessive agressive dog. I have had 2 respected trainers work with a very posessive dog of mine and both say...this might not be fixable and she must be from bad stock. It wasn't until I realized that it was us causing the problems by not setting boundries and limitations for her, getting her out of our bed...etc. Proper exercise is the #1 thing Cesar preaches and both trainers never once mentioned she was a working dog and might need a challenge. She is now a well balanced member of our family and loves kids and other dogs. When she was possessive one day over a wool glove...she wouldn't even drop the glove for a piece of steak. Nothing was going to pull her away from that glove. My wife has a big scar to prove it. It wasn't until I stood there with the leed on, not letting her retreat into her kennel with the glove, for almost 45 min. She would have been euthanized if it were not for Cesar and his methods, now she is a model dog and is working on her companion animal certification.

By Anonymous, at 12:02 PM, February 06, 2009
Bottom line for me? Positive training first. The main problem I have with C. Millan is that people seem to think his methods are appropriate as a first resort, and I don't think he does enough to change their minds. (Of course not ...)

If I used his methods on my dogs as a first resort, they'd think I'd lost my mind. They'll do what I tell them to do without resorting to methods that were developed for aggressive dogs.

I like Ian Dunbar, Victoria Stilwell, and my favorite, Paul Owens. Their methods haven't failed me yet. If they ever do, then I might take another look at Mr. Millan. Until then, meh. Who needs him?

By Anonymous, at 11:54 PM, February 13, 2009
"The main problem I have with C. Millan is that people seem to think his methods are appropriate as a first resort, and I don't think he does enough to change their minds. (Of course not ...)"

Which EXACT methods that you attribute to Cesar Millan are you referring to? I believe everyone who owns a dog or dogs should be a calm assertive pack leader....something Cesar first and foremost advocates regularly.

You come off sounding like Cesar encourages alpha rolling or some other aversive methods on non-aggressive dogs. He DOESN'T!!!

You obviously don't watch his shows or you would see that he quite often uses Positive reinforcement methods and has been doing this by purposely taking on cases in which the dogs have non-aggression issues.

Cesar is called in when people have problematic dogs. He has gotten his reputation by helping people with dogs that have extreme aggression issues that would have been euthanised had it not been for him and in most cases these dogs need aversive methods. Maybe it is unfortunate, but these are the types of cases that get the best TV ratings.

By Anonymous, at 4:55 PM, February 14, 2009

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